|
Post by elshinare on Jan 23, 2018 18:45:44 GMT
So, maybe just a troll thought (anyone else have thoughts that troll themselves into circles?), but while trying to figure out a list, was comparing Feral Warpwolf over 2 Gorax. Single target 14 Def 16 Arm 30 boxes mat 7 vs Two targets 12 Def 16 Arm 22 boxes each (44 total) mat 5. Now sure the feral has warping abilities that make it strictly better in the 1 vs 1 comparison, but just the added fact that you need to definitely devote at least 2 units or 2 models to kill the 2 Gorax seems more of a benefit. Def 14 doesn't seem to matter right now, especially with all the negative def debuffs and even non boosted attack rolls seem to average out to hitting def 14. I know I am wrong, but it seems to play well, right?
|
|
|
Post by maplewhisky on Jan 23, 2018 19:29:41 GMT
A gorax tops out at pow 14. A feral tops out at pow 19.
Vs an arm 20 model 2 goraxes with free charges and primal will do round about 27 damage, a feral will do around about 44 or so.
Without primal the goraxes will do about 15, the feral will do about 30.
Assuming you’re playing in cotw it’s a lot more awkward to primal goraxes and they do have much worse defensive stats but they are cheaper. They’re also lower mat. Their damage starts to drop off much quicker once you go past arm 20. I do think the gorax is an underrated fighting light, especially with Kaya3 because we have seen them in the support role for so long, but in terms of what you would want to bring a Feral for I don’t think they compare.
Also, the Gorax is probably priced appropriately for the game, the Feral is about 2pts past the bar (as per all mk3 living beasts that haven’t been fixed by CID).
The goraxes will also take a tonne more chip on the way in from shooting. 14/18 (sometimes higher with defensive spells or terrain) are good stats and get you away from a lot of guns,
Edit: Can't do maths. Shouldn't do maths. Don't play Goraxes as heavy killers unless you have Synergy or some other Str Buff.
|
|
|
Post by macdaddy on Jan 23, 2018 20:03:52 GMT
Spot on maplewhisky I too don't know why people don't use the gorax as a combat light more often. 2 of them can kill a heavy with primal and another buff. My biggest issue with them is speed 5 and lack of oathfinder honestly but at 7 points I really cannot complain that much. Even wild argi are really decent combat lights under kaya3. The issue is, scarsfells are just better than almost any other light in our stable. the real question is, if the feral goes down to 15 or 16 points, would 2 scarsfells still simply be the superior combat option. I am leaning towards yes under most of our caster stable.
|
|
|
Post by mindwormjim on Jan 23, 2018 21:57:25 GMT
Comparing the damage output of two light warbeasts to a Feral Warpwolf is, frankly, absurd. With no outside assistance other than the warlock caster Primal on them (which I only partially count since the Feral supplies the buff itself) a Feral will reliably destroy all but the most durable opponents (colossals, clam-jacks, and ARM 21 shield heavies).
Gorax Ragers and Scarsfell Griffons are good models with their own advantages, but their damage output does not compare to a heavy warbeast (unless you're using Scarsfells with 2na, but that's a special case).
@'maplewhisky : How are you getting 40 damage against ARM 20 with two Ragers? The best I can do is around 26 unless you start pulling in other buffs.
|
|
|
Post by maplewhisky on Jan 23, 2018 22:07:46 GMT
Comparing the damage output of two light warbeasts to a Feral Warpwolf is, frankly, absurd. With no outside assistance other than the warlock caster Primal on them (which I only partially count since the Feral supplies the buff itself) a Feral will reliably destroy all but the most durable opponents (colossals, clam-jacks, and ARM 21 shield heavies). Gorax Ragers and Scarsfell Griffons are good models with their own advantages, but their damage output does not compare to a heavy warbeast (unless you're using Scarsfells with 2na, but that's a special case). @'maplewhisky : How are you getting 40 damage against ARM 20 with two Ragers? The best I can do is around 26 unless you start pulling in other buffs. For some reason in my head I had them at pow 14, which you see is dice -6, or 6.5 damage on average (little higher expected). This is obviously nonsense and why you shouldn't say anything to anyone before your morning tea. I'll amend the first post.
|
|
|
Post by macdaddy on Jan 23, 2018 23:42:20 GMT
A scars fell with primal and a standard +2 pow buff that most of our casters can achieve does about 17-20 Damage to an arm 20 Heavy. (Boosting the bought attacks damage roll) so 2 of them should scrap the average Khador jack. Then you can make them Def 15 and dodge which is kind of amazing defensively.
I think you can compare a heavies dps to its equivalent points in lights. As long as you don’t discount the rest of the stats and abilities they each have.
The fact is, when you rely on primal as your mainstay buff for living beasts, lights just take it better. It’s not a big deal to lose a light or 2 for a round, but it’s a problem when you lose an 16+ Point Heavy for an entire round.
|
|
|
Post by kuririnad on Jan 24, 2018 2:20:11 GMT
This is why I love having two identical groups fighting on either side of Kaya3: gorax, 2 wild Argus, warpwolf stalker. It's really hard to get all four, and depending on who you Target, I can get some serious damage into your lines in retaliation.
|
|
|
Post by elshinare on Jan 24, 2018 2:48:28 GMT
As I said, my thoughts do troll me quite a bit, but i was thinking of if/when I acquire the Kromac2 army box and if having the 2 Gorax over the 1 Feral is a solid idea or if it is just another mistake. I have used a blessed Gorax to apply some beats to a Cygnar Jack that was def 18 Arm 24 (through buffs) and took it down to 3 boxes.
But anyone else have a Strictly better comparison and why?
|
|
|
Post by kuririnad on Jan 24, 2018 3:04:31 GMT
I think the beauty of this game is that there is rarely ever a "strictly better" comparison, because so much depends on game state, your opponent's list, terrain, scenario, etc. Two gorax can contest/control better than 1 feral, but the feral has a vastly Superior threat range. The feral is better at throwing an opponent, but two gorax can throw two opponents.
I think if you want to play to gorax, go for it. If you don't like it, switch to a feral. Or vice versa. Or be really crazy, and create a living beast list without a source of primal 😉
|
|
|
Post by elshinare on Jan 24, 2018 4:21:36 GMT
I think the beauty of this game is that there is rarely ever a "strictly better" comparison, because so much depends on game state, your opponent's list, terrain, scenario, etc. Two gorax can contest/control better than 1 feral, but the feral has a vastly Superior threat range. The feral is better at throwing an opponent, but two gorax can throw two opponents. I think if you want to play to gorax, go for it. If you don't like it, switch to a feral. Or vice versa. Or be really crazy, and create a living beast list without a source of primal 😉 Well, my build for possible March purchases will be tanith, in Wild Hunt, with 2 wardens 2 Wyrds Reeves Skinwalkers and Loki with Hutchuck that feels kinda crazy
|
|
|
Post by macdaddy on Jan 24, 2018 12:40:23 GMT
elshinare your taking Hutchuck so it can’t be that crazy
|
|
|
Post by elshinare on Jan 24, 2018 16:25:53 GMT
elshinare your taking Hutchuck so it can’t be that crazy Sadly, he has a death wish and I keep forgetting to ambush him at the start of the turn...Still don't quite understand ambush
|
|
|
Post by paradox on Jan 24, 2018 16:53:02 GMT
Hutchuck is the bees knees.
|
|
|
Post by macdaddy on Jan 24, 2018 19:23:28 GMT
elshinare your taking Hutchuck so it can’t be that crazy Sadly, he has a death wish and I keep forgetting to ambush him at the start of the turn...Still don't quite understand ambush Ambush is really hard to get right. It took me a lot of using hutchuck before I really got a feel for it and sadly there is no real formula for when to and when not to ambush. The best way to remember to ambush him is to put him on a table side by the clock or turn dice (somewhere you will be looking a lot) roughly midfield. Make sure he is very visible and close to the table edge. Or keep him right by your dice and tokens. That's what I do to remember my ambushing models.
|
|
xadmar
Junior Strategist
Posts: 173
|
Post by xadmar on Jan 24, 2018 21:23:58 GMT
If I had to pick I would do Feral if I am doing a low beast list and 2 Gorax when doing a high count beast list. I will say that I have not put a feral in my list for a long time. I normally only run one Gorax and then all the other beast.
|
|