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Post by gordaunikus1 on Jan 17, 2018 18:51:28 GMT
While I usually avoid the pair of the week, I want to play this for Captain Con at the end of the month. My Wurmwood/Baldur2 pair from ATC was terrible into what everyone was playing. I think Kruger will go into about everything except magic denial and heavy armor. conflictchamber.com/#c8201b_-0p4a4QjFjF4H4Hg4g45g5gc9c95e5ei7___-0WgM4B4M4Mef5H5H5H5H5H5H5g5gjD5fMy questions - I lose a second gorax and a second unit shifting stones by putting in the valkaries. - Can you get by w 1 set stones? I figure I would need 1 for fury management and 1 to advance una into, get sprint off w the griffons, then at the end of the activation port una into safety.
- Are the shield guards necessary? I figure I can go lower on fury w una and play her farther up with them. Additionally, I'm hoping to save a bird or 2 w them.
- Generally, what do you think of the pair? I thought heavy armor was gone, but lists like Magnus2 (gross), baldur2, bradigus, rasheth, harkevich, and so on are bringing it. As long as Kruger can crush infantry I think I'm fine. I just worry that geomancy that 3'' aoe isn't all it's cracked up to be. |
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Post by musza on Jan 20, 2018 22:24:08 GMT
-yes, I have a lot of success with my Una2 list (won me a Masters) with only one unit of shifting stones. When you have 2 Goraxes it is your Fury Management. Their role is to port Una back so she can project sprint and shoot in range of Black Penny or cKD one;
-no, Griffins are stealth and if you play into gunline that avoids stealth or forest for LOS, if there is one on the table (mage sight) you're better of not dropping Una;
-I'm thinking about changing my regular pairing from Baldur2/Una2 to Una2 and Krueger2 or Bradigus. I won a 3-list tournament today with those and they were perfect but in 2 lists... I don't know, I need more time to test it this way...
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Post by maplewhisky on Jan 20, 2018 23:19:38 GMT
-yes, I have a lot of success with my Una2 list (won me a Masters) with only one unit of shifting stones. When you have 2 Goraxes it is your Fury Menagement. Their role is to port Una back so she can project sprint and shoot in range of Black Penny or cKD one; -no, Griffins are stealth and if you play into gunline that avoids stealth or forrest for LOS if there is one on the table (mage ight) you're better of not dropping Una; -I'm thinking about changing my regular pairing from Baldur2/Una2 to Una2 and Krueger2 or Bradigus. I won a 3-list tournament today with those and they were perfect but in 2 lists... I don't know, I need more time to test it this way... That's funny, cause I'm actually thinking of dropping Una2 from my Una2/Krueger2 pairing. I know it sounds crazy, but I feel like she causes me to play list chicken a lot of the time, which I hate. I'm really looking forward to DH CID, lets put it that way.  |
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Post by gordaunikus1 on Jan 22, 2018 15:16:53 GMT
What are some examples pairs causing you to chicken? |
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Post by maplewhisky on Jan 22, 2018 15:51:08 GMT
What are some examples pairs causing you to chicken? Mostly accurate infantry list paired with arm skews. Khador and Mercs are particularly bad for it. |
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Post by macdaddy on Jan 22, 2018 17:12:52 GMT
Curious to hear what you faced that gave you so many issues? Wumrwood and Baldur 2 should be pretty strong as long as your team wasn't just throwing you into people who had lots of blessed. I would say, if you really want to go mainstream and play una2, your second list needs to be able to overlap a bit with her so you avoid really bad list chicken match ups. To answer your questions: 1: Most of the time what birds you run hot will be primal-ed or will die the following turn anyway. I think your fury management with one unit should be fine. 2: I think you may like them in the right fight. I can tell you that she is pretty easy to kill at ranged if she plays forward. But she really does not need to play forward at all. I think this is going to depend on how you feel in your pairing. I would keep the valkaries though, because its always better to be safe than sorry when it comes to ranged assassinations. 3: A Scarsfell with HOF, Primal, and Flank will murder just about anything it touches. If you have purebloods match ups with really high arm mostly rely on spell or animi to buff, meaning you ignore the worst part of the skew. The key is, you need to overlap your paring a bit more, make Una2 better at handling infantry and I think you are fine: I recommend taking 2 of the Razorwings. Seriously, They are great for triggering flank, cleaning up infantry of all kinds (pow 15 tramples with free boosted attack rolls thanks to amuk.) Are also great at threatening a surprise assassination thanks to being immune to free strikes and getting up to Pow 13 with the potential of flank and HoF. I promise you wont regret it you just need to be mindful that they lack stealth and play accordingly. I would run this with Una2: (Una 2) Una the Skyhunter [+29] - Gorax Rager [7] - Gorax Rager [7] - Pureblood Warpwolf [17] - Razorwing Griffon [7] - Razorwing Griffon [7] - Scarsfell Griffon [8] - Scarsfell Griffon [8] - Scarsfell Griffon [8] - Scarsfell Griffon [8] - Scarsfell Griffon [8] - Scarsfell Griffon [8] - Druid Wilder [0(4)] Blackclad Wayfarer [0(4)] Blackclad Wayfarer [0(4)] Farrow Valkyries [8] Shifting Stones [3] conflictchamber.com/#c8201b_-0WgM4B4B4McHcH5H5H5H5H5H5H5A5g5gjD5fYou want Birds out the absolute anus. I don't think you will miss the second pureblood honestly. |
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Post by gordaunikus1 on Jan 23, 2018 7:28:13 GMT
Good point about overlapping lists a bit. That was the hope behind the second pureblood, but I don't know that 2 10" sprays really solves anything.
My Wurmwood list was basically a gunline. There is plenty of anti-shooting tech amuck. Also, the pair suffered from the same problem you are pointing out here -> While Baldur2 with sentry stones can work through a decent amount of infantry. Scenario was a bit of a problem. Having overlap relieves some of that list chicken.
The other problem was breaking armor. Fighting a lot of high armor boxes just isn't happening with that pair. Even with p+s 20 guardians, I found it hard to get the alpha, so opponent just swarms and grinds you down. I obviously like the lists and did ok, but trying to change it up.
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Post by musza on Jan 23, 2018 9:18:55 GMT
I just want to note that I put double Pureblood not only for the sweet 10" HoF spray but also for deployment reason. With Una I always want to be the first player and I can deploy Warpwolves on both sides of the board (usually 6" from Una). By doing so your opponent is not able to deploy his infantry on the other side of one. Regarding wraightbane's it's not there to help with arm/def spell buffs. Outside of sprays and Una gun you're usually better of with a Primal. Wraigthbane gives you magical weapon to fight stuff like the Wraigth Engine with Griffons (soon to be really helpful against Denny2 too).
That being said, I do think the Razorwing list looks sweet and if only I had double Wolverine and Valkiries I'd be eager to try it.
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Post by musza on Jan 23, 2018 10:29:57 GMT
Also, let me share my thoughts on this pairing. Una2 in CotW struggles a bit against infantry swarms, especially tough like Trolls, Tharns a bit with Iron Fangs, Doom Reavers etc. If they have 2" reach, you cannot dodge away after the first hit and if the numbers are high enough they will just block your way out. With that said, I don't think that's an issue. The list is just not meant to play into those and if you need to (bad list selection) - you can always set up for an assassination which the list has amazing potential for, just commit to the idea and do it smart. Sometimes simply jamming your opponents caster with all the Griffons will be the way to goif you don't loose on scenario that turn. She is very versatile and she has very little horrible matchups in the game.
The second list should compliment the first one (or main in this regard) and cover its downsides (so it's also important which of the list is your main one you have most reps with). It's not an optimal thing to do to make both lists good agains the same things just to avoid bad matchups because you will most likely narrow down your own choices. With that said Baldur2 with a Fulcrum and Wyrds pairs great and has amazing infantry clearing tools. He can also take the alpha if your opponent out-threats your Una2 list. Double Wrath would be good into smaller meta (I've tested it on a tournament) and maybe team event but on larger scene it just won't compliment the list. The one with wolds might be good, I've tried it only once into Grymkins and I was fine - a brick into brick... but given the rising popularity of Grymkins and their super easy access to Wraightbane you'll drop Una anyway (and she has great matchups into most Dark Managerie lists). Now the recently popular Bradigus. He plays into infantry swarm very well. In the finals of a recent tournament I've played him into WTC player with Morvhana2 in Tharns which is probably one of the worst matchups for Una2 in the game (in pair with Orion I guess). He performed super well - I was up on scenario (!), attrition (lost only 3 Wights) and I killed the only thing that could really crack my armor (Warpwolf Stalker). He pairs quite good as well with Una, especially if you manage to fit a forest wall tech (I use min ambushers and Wold Watchers for it) so you could play into gunlines super well or deny retaliation after the FEAT turn. My only issue with Bradigus is he is vulnerable to assassinations and very hard to play (and manage your clock). The last one is Krueger2. He is great into infantry and gunlines but struggles with armor cracking ,which Una2 does well. I personally think he is as versatile as Una2 in the meta. He struggles against huge bases which Una is happy to play into but that's again a list chicken situation. I think pairing Una2 with high armor is a bit more stable pairing while with Krueger2 is much more versatile. They are all legit and one should decide which one is better in his meta. I don't think going double-bones pairing would be any optimal but that's just my opinion.
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Post by maplewhisky on Jan 23, 2018 11:06:40 GMT
Also, let me share my thoughts on this pairing. Una2 in CotW struggles a bit against infantry swarms, especially tough like Trolls, Tharns a bit with Iron Fangs, Doom Reavers etc. If they have 2" reach, you cannot dodge away after the first hit and if the numbers are high enough they will just block your way out. With that said, I don't think that's an issue. The list is just not meant to play into those and if you need to (bad list selection) - you can always set up for an assassination which the list has amazing potential for, just commit to the idea and do it smart. Sometimes simply jamming your opponents caster with all the Griffons will be the way to goif you don't loose on scenario that turn. She is very versatile and she has very little horrible matchups in the game. The second list should compliment the first one (or main in this regard) and cover its downsides (so it's also important which of the list is your main one you have most reps with). It's not an optimal thing to do to make both lists good agains the same things just to avoid bad matchups because you will most likely narrow down your own choices. With that said Baldur2 with a Fulcrum and Wyrds pairs great and has amazing infantry clearing tools. He can also take the alpha if your opponent out-threats your Una2 list. Double Wrath would be good into smaller meta (I've tested it on a tournament) and maybe team event but on larger scene it just won't compliment the list. The one with wolds might be good, I've tried it only once into Grymkins and I was fine - a brick into brick... but given the rising popularity of Grymkins and their super easy access to Wraightbane you'll drop Una anyway (and she has great matchups into most Dark Managerie lists). Now the recently popular Bradigus. He plays into infantry swarm very well. In the finals of a recent tournament I've played him into WTC player with Morvhana2 in Tharns which is probably one of the worst matchups for Una2 in the game (in pair with Orion I guess). He performed super well - I was up on scenario (!), attrition (lost only 3 Wights) and I killed the only thing that could really crack my armor (Warpwolf Stalker). He pairs quite good as well with Una, especially if you manage to fit a forest wall tech (I use min ambushers and Wold Watchers for it) so you could play into gunlines super well or deny retaliation after the FEAT turn. My only issue with Bradigus is he is vulnerable to assassinations and very hard to play (and manage your clock). The last one is Krueger2. He is great into infantry and gunlines but struggles with armor cracking ,which Una2 does well. I personally think he is as versatile as Una2 in the meta. He struggles against huge bases which Una is happy to play into but that's again a list chicken situation. I think pairing Una2 with high armor is a bit more stable pairing while with Krueger2 is much more versatile. They are all legit and one should decide which one is better in his meta. I don't think going double-bones pairing would be any optimal but that's just my opinion. I agree with most of what you said here, but if I may offer a small counterpoint, especially regarding double Bones. Recently I played against somebody who had Harkevich paired with Irusk2. Now, with the Krueger2 & Una2 pairing here I am obviously wanting to drop Una into Harkevich and Krueger into Irusk. However, that’s kind of list chickeny and has about as much chance to go well for my opponent. However, with Bradigus (because Bradigus isn’t quite as good dealing at dealing with heavies at Una, but much better at infantry) I can have a decent game against both if I drop him. Also, importantly, I feel like if you bring two fundamentally similar lists you can usually better guess which list your opponent will drop and as a result make a more informed decision as to which of your lists will be better against what they’ll bring. I think the pairing I’ve played that abuses this idea the most was in mk2, and I’ll run you through a quick anecdote: In 2014 I played Trollbloods. I took them to the WTC, playing Grissel2 & Grissel1. Grissel2 Meat Mountain with Long Riders was an incredibly strong list, and it was very good against most things, one of its few weaknesses was mass weapon master infantry. Grissel1 on the other hand was nearly invulnerable to weapon masters. To run quickly through a couple games I played, round 1 I played vs a Menoth player, who had a cute, tailored for Cryx shooting list and a Harbinger list with 2 Engines, neither of them had lots of armour cracking so we can drop Grissel2. Then, I play vs a Cryx player who had Deneghra2, and... I can’t remember the other caster, but for Cryx it was very squishy and not hard hitting, and the scenario this round was very live, so we again dropped Grissel2 because she skewed armour harder and (especially for Cryx) my opponents lists weren’t very hard hitting. Doing this I was able to get a favorable matchup every round of that WTC, by basically playing 2 very similar versions of the same list and dropping whichever one was better against my opponent. I actually did something similar in the Scottish Masters 2016, playing Coven double raiders paired with Skarre1 double raiders. It’s probably my favourite list construction strategy. I believe that this idea can transfer over to Bradigus and Krueger2, both in Bones, in a way that I don’t think it really does with Una2/Krueger2 (I think it has more likelihood of doing so with Una/Brad as they’re both light beast spams). If I have two ”Tanky Beast Lists”, but with different strengths and functions I can drop the best one for the situation. If they’re weak to a forest wall, ambush or have a colossal I can drop Bradigus, and if they’re reliant on lots of low range guns, low armour infantry or weak to control I can play Krueger. With a pairing like this I feel like you’re much less likely to drop the wrong list, and the consequences of dropping the wrong list are much lower. I feel like we will be able to achieve a similar thing in an Una pairing once the living beasts stable we have is fixed up, and we have not just barely viable but STRONG Tharn themes. For example Una2 bird skew paired with Kromac1 beast skew, or Una2 DH paired with Krueger1 DH. Just my thoughts on that specific idea of list pairings. I very much agree with pretty much everything else you’ve said, and I do still want to point out I think Una2 is definitely our best Warlock, she’s just a bit rock paper scissorsy when paired with bones. Brad & Krueger feel more well rounded to me. |
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Post by macdaddy on Jan 23, 2018 12:53:58 GMT
You really cannot fight infantry in Call of the Wild as well as you can with Bones. So a double call list is going to struggle in a lot of fights you see.
One of the merits of Krueger 2, is most opponents that know what he does won’t risk dropping thier Infantry List into him, because he will wreck infantry....a lot. So you can almost always guarantee an opponent won’t drop thier dudespam List.
If Krueger2 is in your pair you are going to be dropping him a lot, because he handles so many match ups very well. There is really only 1 type of list that turns him off entirely, and that’s of the 8-10 Khador equivalent heavy variety.
In my opinion, bradigus does not actually handle infantry that well (rift is super Meh) The better option for a Arm cracker is almost always going to be 2Una. Without an arm buff Wold Wardens are actually arguable easier for an opponent to kill than birds (Def 15 is way better than a measly arm of 18) so unless you brought a bunch of watchers and guardians your still going to struggle on attrition.
You can make 2Una good into infantry. But what you really want to do is skew her towards arm cracking, but able to handle infantry. Sprinting Scarsfells with Dodge and trampling razorwings with free amuck should let you get a turn or 2 of attrition in before they really lay into you.
I know this sounds off, but I think Mohsar in Bones is also a great pair for Krueger. Pillars control units very well, crevasse is an amazing Spell at Ma8/(9 With fulcrum) And thanks to curse of shadows and Sunhammer you can actually fight heavy bricks. I think after I take my protectorate break I’m going to experiment with him again.
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Post by maplewhisky on Jan 23, 2018 13:13:36 GMT
You really cannot fight infantry in Call of the Wild as well as you can with Bones. So a double call list is going to struggle in a lot of fights you see. One of the merits of Krueger 2, is most opponents that know what he does won’t risk dropping thier Infantry List into him, because he will wreck infantry....a lot. So you can almost always guarantee an opponent won’t drop thier dudespam List. If Krueger2 is in your pair you are going to be dropping him a lot, because he handles so many match ups very well. There is really only 1 type of list that turns him off entirely, and that’s of the 8-10 Khador equivalent heavy variety. In my opinion, bradigus does not actually handle infantry that well (rift is super Meh) The better option for a Arm cracker is almost always going to be 2Una. Without an arm buff Wold Wardens are actually arguable easier for an opponent to kill than birds (Def 15 is way better than a measly arm of 18) so unless you brought a bunch of watchers and guardians your still going to struggle on attrition. You can make 2Una good into infantry. But what you really want to do is skew her towards arm cracking, but able to handle infantry. Sprinting Scarsfells with Dodge and trampling razorwings with free amuck should let you get a turn or 2 of attrition in before they really lay into you. I know this sounds off, but I think Mohsar in Bones is also a great pair for Krueger. Pillars control units very well, crevasse is an amazing Spell at Ma8/(9 With fulcrum) And thanks to curse of shadows and Sunhammer you can actually fight heavy bricks. I think after I take my protectorate break I’m going to experiment with him again. I disagree with quite a lot of this, I think. To go through it bit by bit though: Yes, currently I agree. Once our living beast stable gets fixed (hopefully similar to legion in the DH CID) I could see Kromac1 returning to his old ways in CotW as a valid drop vs infantry. Also, Una right now is decent vs a lot of infantry lists. You need to position smart and often set up for it but there aren’t many infantry skews that can punish apparating stones setting up in wind wall, and then you can abuse spd9 sprints to trade with infantry before porting Una backwards. It’s decent. I agree Krueger2 has a habit of taking over pairings, but I don’t agree re: the infantry thing. Maybe it’s just me lately but I see a tonne of high armour infantry these days, occasionally backed by stupid Eilish, which in my opinion is much harder than heavies for him to deal with. TK is very good vs heavies, it’s normally a 5” threat reduction. TK is less good vs 3-4 units of multiwound infantry and often rebuke can’t even save you. See: PT CID, Maelok, Troll BoH, etc. The 8-10 Khador heavy imo largely depends on caster. Harkevich is hard, Karchev is quite alright if you have Megalith. He has no pathfinder, hates casting Jump Start etc. I also strongly disagree that Brad doesn’t handle infantry well? In mk2 he absolutely crushed most infantry drops and in mk3 he’s largely gotten better at it! Having your army go in, murder the front 15 or so infantry models and then get shunted 5” back and now there’s a whole bunch of forests in their face is really, really strong. Maybe it is a list thing, but I play him with a Guardian, 7 Watchers and a Wight, I don’t know why you would bring Wardens with him. Rift I agree is meh. I agree here, Una even in full bird skew isn’t bad vs a lot of infantry though. Una DH is actually good vs infantry. I haven’t played with (only against) Mohsar in mk3, please write up the games in your batrep thread, would very much enjoy reading it.  Edit: Also, Brad is really good against the infantry that Krueger doesn’t want to see, most of the time! Things like Legion of Steel with Eilish/Orin on their Uhlans, for example. |
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Post by macdaddy on Jan 23, 2018 13:44:03 GMT
well well well maplewhisky let me tell out about one of my favorite spells on Kruegers card, yes even more so than tk....Lightning storm  Facing Arm 23 Pikeman/sentinels? Create a wall of Po 10 nope, they won't get their arm buffs from it if they enter during their turn. Facing Banes that are stealth and High arm? use manikins and drifts to create a nice line of lightning hot tubs that laugh at their pitiful arm 15 (no wraith engine buff from the remains in play AOE) High def blast immune infantry got you down? well gues what, its not blast damage just an auto Pow 10 on anything touched by the AOE! Suck it satyxis and irusk! Ellish got you down? use a manikin as the origin, don't worry old chap, he comes back next turn anyway, and double 1's he survives the lightning bolt! With 2 wardens and megalith you can carpet the board in up to 5 3" AOE's of nope. I'm telling you, its really really effective. It also works against low arm lights like bone jacks and gryphons because a pow 10 can actually cripple them. Kruger is one of the best scalpel casters in our faction, he can get to really annoying places. I really will have to try and report some games with good old Krueger 2 into those match ups to show just how darn playable they are. Its harder to explain, but once you see it, you will fall in love with lightning storm. I agree that harkevetch is hard. He is probably the best circle drop khador can bring. I only own a measly 5 woldwatchers, but I prefer 2 guardians and megs as my heavy core because brad is normally all about that arm cracking for me. Remember for the push back, the watchers will be inside the forest they create and the push will be reduced because of the rough terrain. At max 1" reach you'll lose a whole inch pushing out of the forest you created. |
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Post by maplewhisky on Jan 23, 2018 14:23:55 GMT
I mean I’m a big proponent of using walls of lightning to stop the infantry advance, problem is when it’s infantry that don’t care about them. For example any infantry under a caster with an arm feat or an arm buff. The lightning wall doesn’t really help vs any of the lists I mentioned in my previous response, not that it’s not a great tool, it’s just not helpful in the matchups I listed. Primal Terrors has Chosen and Ogrun, Band of Heroes is all multiwound trolls (and you can KSB before advancing easily), Maelok is a bunch of arm 18+ 8 box gators etc.
I’m guessing you missed the kind of list I was talking about. ^^
I think Hark is quite easily beatable for Circle, especially Una2, he doesn’t really do very much if you make him cast Mobility every turn as he can only allocate 2-3, he just happens to get around most of Krueger’s control elements.
I know. The important part is that you get pushed out of LoS.
Edit: Also, vs the pikemen if Strakhov2 feats (I think that’s the only pikemen list I see consistently with an arm buff) and the Pikes minifeat they can quite happily walk through your lightning aoes, and if the Khador player is familiar with Krueger will save their feat for that.
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Post by macdaddy on Jan 23, 2018 15:26:52 GMT
yeah but you can force those feats very early with the AOE's. Bones deploy is so far forward you can typically force a turn 2 feat from the Pikeman player regardless of whether you go first or second. If they don't feat and stay back, you feat and push them out of scenario by reducing speed and then make another lightning wall. It is a very playable match up for krueger. Let them feat just to walk through your AOE's. IMO that's a win for the circle player especially if you save your feat to apply the -2 speed.
Multiwound infantry is a whole other story. Maelock possy spam, Primal terrors, all pony lists, are going to ingore lightning. Luckily they typically have a lower model count (unless its possy spam) and the lower volume of attacks is not as big a deal. Woldwyrds are also really good at killing infantry with arm upkeeps. Weaponmaster Pow 12's for the win.
We are kind of getting off topic though, perhaps we can continue this in PM?
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