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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Jan 16, 2018 16:48:08 GMT
So I am thinking of giving Nemo 3 a spin and have been dojo’ing lists, I know conventional wisdom is that he wants Dynamo, however whenever I play him he always seems to be terrible. On the flipside whenever I play Thunderhead he is an absolute gem. In my mind Thunderhead is much better than Dynamo, and worth paying the 2 points extra for, however I wanted to crunch some numbers and do a direct comparison between the two to see if my gut feeling is right. Durability
Both have def 12 so that is moot
Dynamo has arm 18 and 30 boxes, 18 x 30 = 540 T-Head has arm 19 and 32 boxes, 19 x 21 = 608
A disparity of 68 in T-Heads favour
With an Armour Buff like Arcane Shield you get the following
Dynamo 21 x 30 = 630 T-Head 22 x 32 = 704
A disparity of 74 in T-Heads favour, so T-Head is more durable, and gets more mileage out of armour buffs thanks to having more boxes.
Ranged Output
I have decided to calculate this under optimum output, so with +2 From the Firefly and Nemo’s Feat
Dynamo has 4 attacks with Multi-Fire, with each subsequent attack getting +1 pow, with Focus to Boost 3 of them (14+4d6) + (15+4d6) + (16+4d6) + (17+3d6) = 62+15d6
T-Head has 3 attacks with his pulse, but has he has to Reload he only gets one boost (16+4d6) + 2(16+3D6) = 48+10d6
So Dynamo has a much greater max damage output at range. However there are a few other things to consider - If T-Head can get into pulse range he can auto-hit with all of his attacks, plus he will do a pow 12/14 (depending on where the Firefly is) to everything in his 6” bubble, however he will do 2 points less damage to the main target - Dynamo will have re-rolls with Nemo, so is unlikely to miss, but if your dice flake out on you it can be a disaster, T-Head on the other hand, can boost the first attack and auto-hit with the others. - Shield Guards can completely shut Dynamo down, if a Shield Guard is more than 2” away from the target and not in range of Dynamo, it just stops Multi-Fire dead in its tracks. - T-Heads gun is not linked to a system, therefore cannot be crippled (can pulse even if he is on 1 box) - The pulse can be utterly devastating once the lines have met and there are plenty of targets, even just the threat of it can force an opponent into a tough spot
Melee Output
Assuming neither charge and just buy attacks, they each get the following
T-Head: 5(17+2d6) = 85+10d6 Dynamo: (17+2d6) + (18+2d6) + (19+2d6) + (20+2d6) = 74+8d6
So Thunderhead has a higher max damage output in melee, but there are a few other things to consider - T-Head has Sustained Attack on his fists - T-Head has Critical Disruption on his fists - Dynamo has a 2” melee weapon, meaning he has a 1” greater threat - T-Head can throw - Dynamo only needs to lose one arm before he is crippled in melee
What do you guys think? Is T-Head better than Dynamo? Am I barking mad?
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Post by snarlyyow on Jan 16, 2018 17:22:03 GMT
I think there's a lot of Thunderhead, and I do think he's too expensive for what he does. I think Dynamo is one of our best jacks in faction, if not THE best which is a hell of a statement. Killing a heavy at range is something reserved for colossals, not 18 point jacks. Multi-Fire is just super great. Dynamo has a better threat range in melee and at range, Thunderhead's threat is pretty ho-hum, especially with Nemo3. Thunderhead is more survivable, that I'll give you, but survivability alone is not enough in this game, T-Head still dies. Dynamo is certainly more fragile. Bring Strangeways.
As far as killing stuff goes Dynamo just does it better. Against a single ARM19 target, with a Firefly, Dynamo does 28 damage without a feat. That cripples most heavies in the game. Thunderhead does 13. That's a massive difference.
I do like Thunderhead a lot with Jakes2 if you play her in Heavy Metal, I think he's almost essential to her gameplan there.
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gmonkey
Junior Strategist
I, for one, welcome our Infernal Overlords.
Posts: 313
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Post by gmonkey on Jan 16, 2018 17:25:54 GMT
I'm not the expert here, but the conventional wisdom is there for a reason. The two point price difference is certainly a factor, and Dynamo also threats a good bit further. From my own experience, lining up a perfect pulse with T-Head is way more difficult than it looks on paper.
I look forward to others' opinion on this.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Jan 16, 2018 17:55:50 GMT
I think my main reservation about Dynamo is the amount of Shield Guards in the game now, a savvy opponent will just position them correctly to make sure Dynamo will not get to shoot a valuable target. Also I just love Thunderheads pulse, 6" in a 180 arc can clear so much stuff
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Post by sludgeogre on Jan 16, 2018 18:25:21 GMT
Thunderhead being 2 points more and having a lower threat range plus a harder to apply ability makes him a moot point for me and a model I don't even consider buying. Most players I know can play around him very easily. Dynamo is much harder to play around because of his threat ranges and the fact that he can nearly kill a heavy at range.
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Post by snarlyyow on Jan 16, 2018 19:02:19 GMT
Thunderhead being 2 points more and having a lower threat range plus a harder to apply ability makes him a moot point for me and a model I don't even consider buying. Most players I know can play around him very easily. Dynamo is much harder to play around because of his threat ranges and the fact that he can nearly kill a heavy at range. I do think Thunderhead has some limited places where he's almost essential and a couple others where he's sort of okay but those places are few. Jakes2 prolly wants Heavy Metal. If that's the case Thunderhead is a really solid piece for her because she really lacks some infantry clearing. Thunderhead really gives her some board space, and he's the only target in theme worth Bullet Dodger. I think Nemo1 can play him because 4 focus and +2 Strength is really solid. I still don't think he's optimal for Nemo1 but he's prolly not bad. I also wonder if Stryker3 or Kraye want him. The extra speed is nice for him in both instances, the CAV charges from Kraye and Stryker's feat are nice with Sustained attack. I'm not saying it's great or anything, but it seems not bad.
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cain
Junior Strategist
Posts: 243
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Post by cain on Jan 16, 2018 19:29:24 GMT
I play dynamo in my nemo3 list and overall rate him higher for general usefullnes. Thunderhead i see more as a very expensive niche pierce. Super against those pesky stealth models or for assassination ( but then in Haley2 lists)
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Post by potato on Jan 16, 2018 19:33:55 GMT
I think you make some excellent points but it really comes down to a few things:
-Damage output at range is king. Especially when you don't expect either of these jacks to make it into melee the large majority of the time. Thunderhead threatening 9" without pathfinder is suuuuuper mopey. -Nemo3 is sitting on only 25 WJ points, so having to spend an extra 2 on T-Head is hard to swallow. Most Nemo3 lists already look strapped for points, and once you have taken the essentials (2 Striders, Arlan, Jr + Firefly, Squire) you aren't left with too much. So your analysis probably has to take into account what you are giving up, which at a minimum is a min unit of mechaniks up to the difference between a lancer and a firefly.
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gmonkey
Junior Strategist
I, for one, welcome our Infernal Overlords.
Posts: 313
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Post by gmonkey on Jan 16, 2018 19:57:45 GMT
I've often theorymachined that Thunderhead would be nice behind a screen of stormblade infantry. With Nemo1's decel and arcane shield, they're up to 20 vs shooting, and their minifeat ups that even more, potentially forcing melee engagement. Then Thunderhead rolls in and pulses, and any surviving stormblades don't care if they're caught in it.
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Post by sludgeogre on Jan 16, 2018 22:34:20 GMT
I've often theorymachined that Thunderhead would be nice behind a screen of stormblade infantry. With Nemo1's decel and arcane shield, they're up to 20 vs shooting, and their minifeat ups that even more, potentially forcing melee engagement. Then Thunderhead rolls in and pulses, and any surviving stormblades don't care if they're caught in it. You still run into the problem of low threat range. Even if the Stormblades are screening, T-head only has 9 inches of threat behind them, and if they do engage, they can probably do so in a way that jams enough to make any pulse that you can get very ineffective. It sounds good on paper, but when you factor in that he's a 20 point heavy that might kill 3-4 infantry in that situation, it won't get you very far.
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Post by mydnight on Jan 17, 2018 1:20:44 GMT
I wish they'd just make him 22 points and make him have natural RoF 3. Or allowing him to charge pulse. He's too focus strapped and too short ranged to be worth 20. And while he works with Nemo3, dynamo just seems to work better exactly because of the bond. It's true that shield guard will ruin dynamo's day, but that's why you have 2 striders
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Jan 17, 2018 9:33:40 GMT
Looks like I am the snowflake on this one, would it be heresy to say I am planning a Nemo 3 list with no Dynamo but with T-Head?
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Post by potato on Jan 17, 2018 13:24:33 GMT
It can probably work fine, but the concern for me is that Dynamo is a near-guaranteed dead heavy on feat turn whereas T-Head is anything but.
What is the list you are looking at?
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Jan 17, 2018 13:35:32 GMT
It can probably work fine, but the concern for me is that Dynamo is a near-guaranteed dead heavy on feat turn whereas T-Head is anything but. What is the list you are looking at? The list I am considering is:
Nemo 3 (Heavy Metal) (Magnetic Field) - Squire (free) - Thunderhead (Electrify) - Centurion (Lightning Shroud) - Firefly - Firefly
Junior (free) - Firefly Arlan (free)
Min Meks
Storm Strider (Arcane Shield) Storm Strider
I know that there is no arc node, however between the 3 Fireflys, 2 Storm Striders and Nemo's gun, there should not be too much of a need for Chain Lightning, and Force Hammer is too expensive to cast regularly, although it can be good for enabling assassinations, so I may add an arc node later.
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Post by jisidro on Jan 17, 2018 15:44:35 GMT
Does Thunderhead open up a Match-up for your Nemo3 list that Dynamo does not? Do you lose the ability to play into a match-up by not having Dynamo?
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