|
|
Post by onijet01 on Jan 14, 2018 19:31:25 GMT
Okay SO Ill get to the point. I am working on my first Cygnar List Paring for some Semi-Competitive Games. I do not Expect to win but I wanted the Communities Opinion On a List Pairing.
Warcasters Are
Captain Jeremiah Kraye Or Kraye 1 In Heavy Metal Theme
and
Commander Adept Nemo or Nemo 1 In Storm Division Theme
Kraye 1 is
Cygnar Army - 75 / 75 points
[Theme] Heavy Metal
(Kraye 1) Captain Jeremiah Kraye [+28]
- Centurion [17]
- Centurion [17]
- Centurion [17]
- Minuteman [9]
- Minuteman [9]
- Minuteman [9]
- Minuteman [9]
- Squire [0(5)]
Harlan Versh, Illuminated One [0(4)]
Field Mechaniks (min) [3]
Thorn Gun Mages [9]
- Captain Jonas Murdoch [4]
Nemo 1 is
Cygnar Army - 75 / 75 points
[Theme] Storm Division
(Nemo 1) Commander Adept Nemo [+30]
- Firefly [8]
- Firefly [8]
- Firefly [8]
- Stormclad [18]
- Stormclad [18]
- Squire [0(5)]
Captain Arlan Strangewayes [4]
Major Katherine Laddermore [8]
Stormsmith Stormcaller (3) [0(5)]
Stormsmith Stormcaller (3) [5]
Storm Lances (max) [20]
Stormsmith Storm Tower [4]
Stormsmith Storm Tower [4]
I know Kraye 1 has a focus problem with all those Warjacks But with Repo and Pathfinder Im hopping the List will be quick enough. the Minute men are my anti-infantry models Primarily as they can Get behind enemy lines and Do damage. With Gunfighter their Melee Range is flexible and they can still Do good Work.
Nemo 1 would be better with Nemo 3 but then I lack the ability to Put out 5/6 focus warjacks. Plus I love the Stormclads. Nemo 1 also has the ability to really reach out and harm Warjack Heavy Drops with his feat. Disruption Will harm a lot of warjacks and hinder a large amount of casters for a turn. his feat damage can even be at Pow 16 due to a firefly and Can boost the damage roll.
thats my thoughs on the lists. I was Curious what the Community thinks About the list pairing.
FYI I hate Haley 1,2,3 with a Extreme Passion. To the point I have alot of my models Stomping her Corps. I know she is a Great Caster But I dont Like her Personally.
|
|
|
|
Post by booggy on Jan 15, 2018 11:47:46 GMT
Triple Centurions with Kraye seems fun  But Thorn GM + Murdoch feels out of place.. I would rather have Strangeways to get access to magical weaponry in addition to free focus. The Nemo1 list is uncommun as well. I like having an arc-node with him... And Dynamo is nice with 4 focus. And Journeyman is super cool to stack ARM buff, with Deceleration... ARM 22 Stormlances are legit ! If you test these list, i would be curious about your feedback. |
|
|
|
Post by onijet01 on Jan 15, 2018 16:03:08 GMT
Triple Centurions with Kraye seems fun But Thorn GM + Murdoch feels out of place.. I would rather have Strangeways to get access to magical weaponry in addition to free focus. The Nemo1 list is uncommun as well. I like having an arc-node with him... And Dynamo is nice with 4 focus. And Journeyman is super cool to stack ARM buff, with Deceleration... ARM 22 Stormlances are legit ! If you test these list, i would be curious about your feedback. I thoiufht about Dynamo with the list for more ranged combat but if i did that id lose free focus and melee output. So im not sure its worth the swap. As far as the Thorn Gunmages with Murdoch is there for a really cool interaction i found lately. As long as a gunfighter is engaged by an enemy model their melee range for gunfighter is equal to the engaging models melee range. Murdoc grabts assult to his unit and go to ground. So assulting gunmages can shoot 3 times in a turn per model. Also sense Krayes feat allows models shot by suffer flair and it alows his models to charge an extra 2 inches |
|
|
|
Post by darkangeldentist on Jan 15, 2018 17:21:10 GMT
I like both lists and would be interested to hear how you get on with them. From a purely theory side of things I look at the Kraye list and see an intimidating amount of metal but a lack of options to soften things up on the approach. It's definitely got speed but I've had many games where a centurion (even with a free charge) has failed to down what I sent it in to kill. Whenever I've fielded Kraye it's always been with a couple of chargers for some respectable ranged presence. Thunderhead works very well with him (although he is focus hungry and a little pillow fisted) and can fill multiple roles. I like the Thorn gun mages in there too, as a control element or aid for infantry clearance they are a very solid addition to any Cygnar list. I do always want to include Gibbs when I take them though as reposition helps a lot for keeping them safe.
The only change I would consider initially though is swapping a couple of minutemen for chargers. I do like the idea of a swarm of minutemen and know that taking more instances of some models can have greater impact and influence than it first looks but chargers are such good value and have better and more reliable ranged presence than the minutemen.
Nemo1 also looks fun although I'm not sure about taking that many storm smith stormcallers. I've not put them on the table much this edition but without something else to help with setting up triangulation I've always found it hard to get what I think is value from them. Normally I'd want an arc node with Nemo1 and more spellcasters, just to ensure I get 3 power tokens a turn but theme lists do make that a little harder so I don't really have any suggestions at this time. Best of luck and please tell us how you get on.
|
|
|
|
Post by snarlyyow on Jan 15, 2018 17:32:16 GMT
The on thing I'll say about Nemo1 is you're just not taking advantage of a several massive parts of his kit: 1 - The ability to generate additional focus. Missing out on Junior, Jakes and other magic users is a pretty huge deal. Nemo can have up to 11 focus per turn, 12 with Strangeways. And you're missing out on that, it really hampers his ability to run jacks. 2 - The Stormclad's accumulator You're going to have some real issues having the Stormclads keep up with the Stormlances to benefit from Accumulator. 3 - Decel Stormsmiths don't really benefit from Decel at all. 4 - An arc node Losing an arc node to cast Voltaic Snare or Chain Lightning is pretty sad. Voltaic Snare is a game winning spell that you should be casting several times per game. 5 - Dynamo He's Firetrucking great with Nemo1. He's prolly the best jack in faction and you've left him home. Getting rerolls on attack rolls, giving him 4 focus per turn. It's all great. So you're getting two free solos in this list, one of which is 3 Stormsmiths. What are the Stormsmiths doing for Nemo? Does he lack dude removal? You have 3 Fireflies and eleaps everywhere. Add in that Storm Division doesn't do anything for the old man himself, other than 2 free solos (one of which should be Arlan by god!) there's no reason to run him here. The issue you'll have building him in Storm Division is you'll start giving up too much to get those free points. He runs Heavy Metal like a boss. |
|
|
|
Post by onijet01 on Jan 15, 2018 22:42:43 GMT
To be honest i fid not build a list to optimize Nemo 1 intentionally. Its tru he can be a huge focus house but that costs points im not willing to spend to get. (Points on the form of multiple battlegroups and casters.) The idea behind this list is denial to large battlegroups.
Its a theme ive not seen nor read any player trying with any nemo. But is best used by Nemo 1. The thing is i could have built a kit optimized list but that lacks certain key playstyles im trying for.
A good example is at my meta i see alot of high warmachine cou t battlegroups comming from khador, cryx, retribution, and cygnar. So it made me think about a new type of denial.
This lead me to Nemo 1 after 3 weeks of research. Though this is not optimal his feat is the most devistating control eliment to the inted lists to fight.
Having fallen to deathjacks massive focus load or spell debuffing from cryx, retributions helios gryphon list, or harkevich heavy jacks. I began thinking.
Though disruption can be take away by the ability "empower" it has already searved it perpose.
Sense models disrupted can not gain any focus by any means this places nemo 1 in a huge advantage for denial. One or two focus a model (retribution being the acception) is seldom enough to put any major work into armor 19 heavies.
It also hamers models that have any built in focus gaining abilities during any phase but activation.
As far a kraye1 i need to test plays first but i think he is going to be a more dedicated anti armor hordes drop
|
|
|
|
Post by booggy on Jan 16, 2018 8:28:18 GMT
As far as the Thorn Gunmages with Murdoch is there for a really cool interaction i found lately. As long as a gunfighter is engaged by an enemy model their melee range for gunfighter is equal to the engaging models melee range. Murdoc grabts assult to his unit and go to ground. So assulting gunmages can shoot 3 times in a turn per model. Are you sure about this ? I think that if you charge, a gunfighter model is allowed to use a ranged attack instead of melee attack (with no auto boost on damage) for his charge attack... but I don't think the model can use all his ranged attacks after a successful charge, unless it has the "Dual attack" rule. TLDR : I could be wrong, but I think Thorn Gun Mage assaulting with Murdoch would have only 2 attacks (assault attack and charge attack). |
|
|
|
Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Jan 16, 2018 9:08:17 GMT
As far as the Thorn Gunmages with Murdoch is there for a really cool interaction i found lately. As long as a gunfighter is engaged by an enemy model their melee range for gunfighter is equal to the engaging models melee range. Murdoc grabts assult to his unit and go to ground. So assulting gunmages can shoot 3 times in a turn per model. Are you sure about this ? I think that if you charge, a gunfighter model is allowed to use a ranged attack instead of melee attack (with no auto boost on damage) for his charge attack... but I don't think the model can use all his ranged attacks after a successful charge, unless it has the "Dual attack" rule. TLDR : I could be wrong, but I think Thorn Gun Mage assaulting with Murdoch would have only 2 attacks (assault attack and charge attack). They are ROF 2 on their guns, nothing stops them from taking both gun shots on a turn that they charge. If they have Assault then they can make 3 gun shots. Dual Attack is irrelevant in this instance as at no point are they making melee attacks
|
|
gmonkey
Junior Strategist
I, for one, welcome our Infernal Overlords.
Posts: 313 
|
Post by gmonkey on Jan 16, 2018 13:34:37 GMT
The on thing I'll say about Nemo1 is you're just not taking advantage of a several massive parts of his kit: 1 - The ability to generate additional focus. Missing out on Junior, Jakes and other magic users is a pretty huge deal. Nemo can have up to 11 focus per turn, 12 with Strangeways. And you're missing out on that, it really hampers his ability to run jacks. 2 - The Stormclad's accumulator You're going to have some real issues having the Stormclads keep up with the Stormlances to benefit from Accumulator. 3 - Decel Stormsmiths don't really benefit from Decel at all. 4 - An arc node Losing an arc node to cast Voltaic Snare or Chain Lightning is pretty sad. Voltaic Snare is a game winning spell that you should be casting several times per game. 5 - Dynamo He's Firetrucking great with Nemo1. He's prolly the best jack in faction and you've left him home. Getting rerolls on attack rolls, giving him 4 focus per turn. It's all great. So you're getting two free solos in this list, one of which is 3 Stormsmiths. What are the Stormsmiths doing for Nemo? Does he lack dude removal? You have 3 Fireflies and eleaps everywhere. Add in that Storm Division doesn't do anything for the old man himself, other than 2 free solos (one of which should be Arlan by god!) there's no reason to run him here. The issue you'll have building him in Storm Division is you'll start giving up too much to get those free points. He runs Heavy Metal like a boss. I've got to second everything here. The main things I look for in a Nemo1 list are jacks to give 4 focus to and spellcaster models to give him extra focus. This list is crazy electro-centric, and seems a much better fit for Nemo3. Even dropping a single storm tower for a journeyman and moving a firefly to it would help a lot. |
|
|
|
Post by snarlyyow on Jan 16, 2018 15:38:06 GMT
To be honest i fid not build a list to optimize Nemo 1 intentionally. Its tru he can be a huge focus house but that costs points im not willing to spend to get. (Points on the form of multiple battlegroups and casters.) The idea behind this list is denial to large battlegroups. Its a theme ive not seen nor read any player trying with any nemo. But is best used by Nemo 1. The thing is i could have built a kit optimized list but that lacks certain key playstyles im trying for. A good example is at my meta i see alot of high warmachine cou t battlegroups comming from khador, cryx, retribution, and cygnar. So it made me think about a new type of denial. As the resident worldwide Nemo1 apologist, I've played him at various events, you're talking denial but don't have a lancer to cast Voltaic Snare. It's a great spell and it's back breaking when applied correctly. I had a game at Lock and Load this year against Magnus2, double Galleon. I cast Voltaic Snare every turn from my Lancer. I had another game against Helynna's Pacific Rim List and I Voltaic Snared two colossals in one go (don't leave two colossals base to base with the objective against Nemo1!). It's a big deal. A huge deal. And you need an Arc node to do it or Nemo will just die. Nemo also likes the Arc Node to arc out Locomotion which, by the way, is a great spell on Nemo1 but you don't have any spell casters in your list so you'll never get to cast it because it's expensive. I'm positive the list you posted above is playable because Decel and Nemo1s feat, when used correctly, can take you far in a lot of matchups. But it's far from an optimal list and something I wouldn't consider playing myself in any competitive setting. |
|
|
|
Post by onijet01 on Jan 16, 2018 15:38:58 GMT
As i stated thats not what the list is built for. I do appreciate the feed bavk about adding spellcasters but again that harms this list far more than helping it.
As intended this list is designed to take high warmachine battlegroups paired with high def infantry
|
|
|
|
Post by snarlyyow on Jan 16, 2018 15:42:01 GMT
I mean...okay? I don't understand how foregoing powerful abilities and synergies makes something worse. But, to each his own! Have fun out there.
|
|
|
|
Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Jan 16, 2018 16:12:51 GMT
As i stated thats not what the list is built for. I do appreciate the feed bavk about adding spellcasters but again that harms this list far more than helping it. As intended this list is designed to take high warmachine battlegroups paired with high def infantry So you want to deal with lots of Jacks, but don't want to use his most obvious anti-jack spell? Okay... |
|
|
|
Post by sludgeogre on Jan 16, 2018 18:31:24 GMT
I have to second everything that snarlyyow has said and also add that both lists will get totally crushed by any competent Cryx player. The centurions won't put out enough damage and will get swarmed while the Nemo1 list will fall apart quickly. You might have some game into the stuff you mentioned (high def, large battlegroups) but beyond that you're going to struggle. The Kraye list should do well into stuff it's geared for, but three Centurions is a bit much (two is ideal) and I am also not sure about the Thorn Gun Mages doing much work since they are likely to evaporate quickly.
|
|
|
|
Post by onijet01 on Jan 16, 2018 18:54:17 GMT
As i stated thats not what the list is built for. I do appreciate the feed bavk about adding spellcasters but again that harms this list far more than helping it. As intended this list is designed to take high warmachine battlegroups paired with high def infantry So you want to deal with lots of Jacks, but don't want to use his most obvious anti-jack spell? Okay... You do realize that He can only cast his ANIT-Jack spell once per activation (last line in the Discriptor) and he can still cast it even handing out 6 focus in my list. his Chain Lightning spell is okay but far better vs infantry than any thing else being only pow 10. So again His anti jack spell can only be used once a turn. That type of partial reasoning or unknown rules of cards will cost games. If i feel i need a extra Caster to supplement nemo1 I will add it but that also takes away more than it gives back. No list is ever perfect. I do appreciate the criticisms, yet I do feel with some vague comments given Some players are not familiar with his toolkit and abilities. |
|
But Thorn GM + Murdoch feels out of place.. I would rather have Strangeways to get access to magical weaponry in addition to free focus.
