Grimolf
Junior Strategist
Posts: 246
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Post by Grimolf on Jan 3, 2018 19:03:42 GMT
ATC 2018 lists have been posted. Cryx is represented 16 times (tied for second with Circle Orboros, behind Cygnar at 17). Denny1 is most taken Cryx caster (Her last dance before the nerfs hit? Or, does she have continued value?). Skarre1 and Coven are well represented, as always. But, there is a good smattering of casters! Nice to see the depth of our bench. No Aiakos2  What are your thoughts?
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Post by Gamingdevil on Jan 4, 2018 9:28:20 GMT
There are definitely some "non-conventional" lists out there. Also lots of Slayers, mostly with Gaspy 3, but also with Venethrax, Goreshade 1 and Gaspy 1 (for some reason)
It's very telling how literally nobody is playing Infernal Machines, probably because it tries to be two things at once, namely a jack theme and a Thrall theme, but BI is better at jacks and Thralls themselves aren't very compelling. I expect that more people will pick up Scourge and Slaughter Fleet once they get more options.
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kuarnix
Junior Strategist
Posts: 145 
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Post by kuarnix on Jan 5, 2018 23:11:14 GMT
The Gaspy1 list is interesting, it's similar to something I've been thinking about. Basically Black Industries wants two things: a speed buff and a damage buff / ARM debuff, preferably in Scything Touch form. Gapsy1 takes care of the damage issue, and he also crowd controls or can LoS block with the clouds. Not a lot for speed though. Goreshade1 is interesting as well but also slow. Venethrax in Black Industries... some of the most fun I've had in MK3. I am surprised there are no real shooting 'jacks in here, though.
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Deller
Junior Strategist
I’m on a Boat
Posts: 605
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Post by Deller on Jan 9, 2018 3:08:09 GMT
Post Deneghra1 nerfs I expect most of the current Deneghra1 Scourge lists will migrate over to the Asphyxious1 version that Brandon Andrews is playing here since Asphyxious1 just runs it better post nerfs. While I don’t really find the complete lack of Aiakos2 surprising, I do find the complete lack of Scaverous & Goreshade3 a bit odd. I am a little surprised to see Black Industries represented this heavily already considering the current lack of Iron Mongers which I’ve found to be much needed in the 2017 environment. Going without any units just feels terrible, and none of the Merc units or Cephalyx have really lived up to expectations, aside from Croe with Scaverous Black Industries, but there’s no Scaverous here so.
Infernal Machines being absent isn’t surprising, there’s no reason to play it anymore as a jack theme with Slaughter Fleet & Black Industries now existing (hyper-aggressive is terrible on Cryx Jacks & it’s almost always incorrect to trigger it and take the advance), and it’s always been a terrible infantry theme because the only good infantry options in the theme are Soul Hunters which are now outclassed by Bane Riders & Carrion Thralls which are a great jam unit with nothing worth jamming for. Bile Thralls & Mechanithralls are just trash now, and there’s literally no reason to play them except to gain access to Brute Thralls. If you want good Cav just play Dark Host, if you want a fast jam play Scourge or Slaughter Fleet once Sharde Pirates release.
I love how fast Ghost Fleet died off even before the Revenants got nerfed. Post nerfs it’ll probably join Infernal Machines on the casual table. The fact that even the Terminus players have transitioned over to Dark Host is pretty telling about the state of the theme force.
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Post by Gamingdevil on Jan 9, 2018 7:52:51 GMT
Post Deneghra1 nerfs I expect most of the current Deneghra1 Scourge lists will migrate over to the Asphyxious1 version that Brandon Andrews is playing here since Asphyxious1 just runs it better post nerfs. While I don’t really find the complete lack of Aiakos2 surprising, I do find the complete lack of Scaverous & Goreshade3 a bit odd. I am a little surprised to see Black Industries represented this heavily already considering the current lack of Iron Mongers which I’ve found to be much needed in the 2017 environment. Going without any units just feels terrible, and none of the Merc units or Cephalyx have really lived up to expectations, aside from Croe with Scaverous Black Industries, but there’s no Scaverous here so. Infernal Machines being absent isn’t surprising, there’s no reason to play it anymore as a jack theme with Slaughter Fleet & Black Industries now existing (hyper-aggressive is terrible on Cryx Jacks & it’s almost always incorrect to trigger it and take the advance), and it’s always been a terrible infantry theme because the only good infantry options in the theme are Soul Hunters which are now outclassed by Bane Riders & Carrion Thralls which are a great jam unit with nothing worth jamming for. Bile Thralls & Mechanithralls are just trash now, and there’s literally no reason to play them except to gain access to Brute Thralls. If you want good Cav just play Dark Host, if you want a fast jam play Scourge or Slaughter Fleet once Sharde Pirates release. I love how fast Ghost Fleet died off even before the Revenants got nerfed. Post nerfs it’ll probably join Infernal Machines on the casual table. The fact that even the Terminus players have transitioned over to Dark Host is pretty telling about the state of the theme force. I actually think Overlords are definitely worth the 8 points in BI and play them as my only unit in my Asphyxious 3 lists. Don't forget that casters that don't have an automatic attachment also get WSC as a unit choice. I am considering changing my list to include the Ironmongers, but it would require me to drop Deathjack which I am loathe to do, especially with that tasty new sculpt coming. I'm not sure if Asphyxious 1 post nerf will be strictly better than Denny 1, don't forget that that same nerf is bringing Dark Shroud to the theme, meaning some of Gaspy's tech is redundant (though still good) and Denny 1's feat will still be strong control. I do agree that it will be more of a choice instead of a bit of a no brainer. I really agree on IM, as I only find myself making casual lists in this theme. Basically when I want to play jacks, I usually want Deathjack in there, so it's either BI and IM. Carapace on the heavies is really, really hard to give up on so my next question is "does my caster do anything for Mechanithralls at all?" If yes, I could still go for IM, but then I start with 2 units of Mechanithralls with max Brutes because I need shield guards to keep my jacks even remotely safe. Then I fill out until 40 points of thralls and add more jacks. This theme should really be played as an infantry spam theme, but nobody wants to buy all those Mechanithralls and that still leaves questionable functions for Carrion Thralls (who we were so exited for when they were first announced) and Bile Thralls (who are just slow and vulnerable). Soulhunters are actually good, but they are expensive and fragile and don't fit into the body spam theme. The theme still suffers from its very first problems, namely that it's an infantry theme that pretends to be a jack theme and is good at neither. Perhaps after the Ghost Fleet nerf, IM will find a place as an attrition/recursion theme, but I'm honestly not sure as GF will still be better at assassination. Speaking of GF, I think the knowledge that it will get nerfed also heavily influences people's choices here; I'm not sure if it would've disappeared completely like this if the CID hadn't occurred. I agree that people will move on from it after the nerf, except as a pure ranged assassination list maybe (so Denny 1 still and possibly Denny 3 for Scourge) |
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Deller
Junior Strategist
I’m on a Boat
Posts: 605
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Post by Deller on Jan 9, 2018 8:48:20 GMT
Post Deneghra1 nerfs I expect most of the current Deneghra1 Scourge lists will migrate over to the Asphyxious1 version that Brandon Andrews is playing here since Asphyxious1 just runs it better post nerfs. While I don’t really find the complete lack of Aiakos2 surprising, I do find the complete lack of Scaverous & Goreshade3 a bit odd. I am a little surprised to see Black Industries represented this heavily already considering the current lack of Iron Mongers which I’ve found to be much needed in the 2017 environment. Going without any units just feels terrible, and none of the Merc units or Cephalyx have really lived up to expectations, aside from Croe with Scaverous Black Industries, but there’s no Scaverous here so. Infernal Machines being absent isn’t surprising, there’s no reason to play it anymore as a jack theme with Slaughter Fleet & Black Industries now existing (hyper-aggressive is terrible on Cryx Jacks & it’s almost always incorrect to trigger it and take the advance), and it’s always been a terrible infantry theme because the only good infantry options in the theme are Soul Hunters which are now outclassed by Bane Riders & Carrion Thralls which are a great jam unit with nothing worth jamming for. Bile Thralls & Mechanithralls are just trash now, and there’s literally no reason to play them except to gain access to Brute Thralls. If you want good Cav just play Dark Host, if you want a fast jam play Scourge or Slaughter Fleet once Sharde Pirates release. I love how fast Ghost Fleet died off even before the Revenants got nerfed. Post nerfs it’ll probably join Infernal Machines on the casual table. The fact that even the Terminus players have transitioned over to Dark Host is pretty telling about the state of the theme force. I actually think Overlords are definitely worth the 8 points in BI and play them as my only unit in my Asphyxious 3 lists. Don't forget that casters that don't have an automatic attachment also get WSC as a unit choice. I am considering changing my list to include the Ironmongers, but it would require me to drop Deathjack which I am loathe to do, especially with that tasty new sculpt coming. I'm not sure if Asphyxious 1 post nerf will be strictly better than Denny 1, don't forget that that same nerf is bringing Dark Shroud to the theme, meaning some of Gaspy's tech is redundant (though still good) and Denny 1's feat will still be strong control. I do agree that it will be more of a choice instead of a bit of a no brainer. I really agree on IM, as I only find myself making casual lists in this theme. Basically when I want to play jacks, I usually want Deathjack in there, so it's either BI and IM. Carapace on the heavies is really, really hard to give up on so my next question is "does my caster do anything for Mechanithralls at all?" If yes, I could still go for IM, but then I start with 2 units of Mechanithralls with max Brutes because I need shield guards to keep my jacks even remotely safe. Then I fill out until 40 points of thralls and add more jacks. This theme should really be played as an infantry spam theme, but nobody wants to buy all those Mechanithralls and that still leaves questionable functions for Carrion Thralls (who we were so exited for when they were first announced) and Bile Thralls (who are just slow and vulnerable). Soulhunters are actually good, but they are expensive and fragile and don't fit into the body spam theme. The theme still suffers from its very first problems, namely that it's an infantry theme that pretends to be a jack theme and is good at neither. Perhaps after the Ghost Fleet nerf, IM will find a place as an attrition/recursion theme, but I'm honestly not sure as GF will still be better at assassination. Speaking of GF, I think the knowledge that it will get nerfed also heavily influences people's choices here; I'm not sure if it would've disappeared completely like this if the CID hadn't occurred. I agree that people will move on from it after the nerf, except as a pure ranged assassination list maybe (so Denny 1 still and possibly Denny 3 for Scourge) Ghost Fleet was already on the decline prior to nerf announcements. Dark Host runs the Wraith Engine significantly better, and pairs better with the rest of the Theme Forces. Honestly even had Ghost Fleet & Deneghra1 gone completely ignored this CID cycle, I’d still have expected the theme to fall to the wayside this bad, only I wouldn’t have expected the falloff until the new Scourge/Slaughter Fleet models started releasing. As for Asphyxious1 vs Deneghra1 post nerf, I think Asphyxious1 is the clear winner, because I don’t think the choice is a no brainer currently. Even now there are some compelling arguments for why Asphyxious1 is the top Scourge of the Broken Coast caster & not Deneghra1. Post nerfs, IMO it’s no contest, Asphyxious1 takes it. Personally I haven’t liked Overlords in Black Industries, and the only lists I’ve enjoyed the Combine in were Scaverous & Deneghra2 post CID. Overlords die too easily & the Combine are strong enough for my opponent to justify throwing valuable attacks into them to scalp them out leaving me with no scoring options for half the zones outside of committing my caster. |
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