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Post by elshinare on Dec 28, 2017 23:55:08 GMT
So, was trying to figure out my next purchase, trying to stay in a single theme or maybe branch into another. But the themes seem like they are a little lackluster or at least they are weaker than other factions. Now there are two exceptions, Bones, and Devourer's Host. They seem to support the mini factions they are designed for.
Wild Hunt: Wolfsworn theme, only benefits 1 Wolfsworn unit, Gives pathfinder to warbeasts. No character warbeasts allowed unless bonded to the warlock...
So, my argument here is Loki should be allowable under theme, and any 1 Wolfsworn unit can be declared before deployment to have ambush. And Morraig should be allowed as a free solo. Or, all Wolfsworn units gain prey.
Secret Masters: Druids (blackclad) and minions (but only allowed one unit of minions?) Start with free upkeeps?
Since the benefit of this theme includes sacrificing minions, why not include the point cost into the free solo benefit? Or, change it to being able to sacrifice any warrior model in faction and lose the minion clause. am I Wrong? Also, Brennos seems like a good fit as a an allowable character warbeast in this theme.
Call of The Wild, I want to say it is not as good as it should be, reason being, extremely limited on units you can bring, you can bring shifting stones (apparently those are a living unit?), but no sentry stone, or Skinwalkers or Death Wolves (I see them fitting thematically). This one I personally think any one living character warbeast should be allowed, Brennos as the only character warbeast...does anyone play Brennos? ever? in any lists? I've been looking and haven't seen anything. Did they design this theme to try and get people to buy the model? This theme I think had more thought put into it, it seems to support the models in it, and gives a decent bonus of +1 to the die roll (although I think this theme should be the one to Give pathfinder to all warbeasts).
Now that the wall of text is done. Am I wrong in my thoughts? For not playing many themes am I right? could we PP just scrap themes and say we need to design models better?
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Post by kuririnad on Dec 29, 2017 2:03:19 GMT
In a word, no.
Are we missing information on Secret Masters? Is there room for discussion about what the designers see as interesting Circle themes and what some players think it's interesting?
The thing about Call of the Wild is it, like Bones, is our "jack theme" meaning that there are no units included outside of "faction-defining support" units like beast handlers and choir. For better or worse (and possibly as a holdover from mk2) shifting stones are ours.
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Post by oncomingstorm on Dec 29, 2017 6:51:25 GMT
I think you may be conflating two separate problems. Themes may be bad for two reasons: Either the models that make up the theme are suboptimal, or the theme itself is poorly designed. IMO, call of the wild is the first issue. Yes, it could use an in-faction unit (and kuririnad I can't think of another factions' jack or beast theme that doesn't allow at least one mainline faction unit in addition to jack/beast support) but the main issue is that our stable of living beasts is crap. The only living heavy that I'd say is in a good place is the pureblood, which is more of a support heavy than a beatstick, and the vast majority of our lights...suck. The theme benefits are fine, and while I personally think it's shitty that we're one of the few factions without a 'combined BG models theme' (the other being Retribution) I can also see that the theme benefit is better to make up for that (-1 cost on animus is pretty damn sweet). Buff beasts, and call of the wild becomes very reasonable. Wild Hunt is some of both. Lots of wolf-sworn models aren't particularly strong, and while ambushing wolves of orboros are good, it's more a case of fixing a not-very-good base unit, which is never as exciting as buffing a unit you would have taken anyways. Similarly, tracker is both A) a bad theme benefit, because terrain layout can easily mean your theme benefit does nothing and B) TERRIBLE with the non-pathfinder living beasts we seem to be cursed with. My suggestions: Replace the tracker benefit with 'warbeasts gain gang fighter'. There's precedent for it in slaughter fleet, and it would play into the cooperative theme that the wolf-sworn have going for them - little wolves of orboros helping the big wolves pull down prey they couldn't handle without the help. Drop the Wolves of Orboros UA to 3 points, allow death wolves to start with one corpse each (this also helps open up Devourer's Host) and give Skinwalkers +1 speed and armor and straight up pathfinder to let them operate as an actual tarpit unit. Allow Wolf Lord Morraig to be taken free in-theme Secret Masters is just...the worst, on so, so many levels. The theme benefits are skornergistic (you get free points for blackclads, but you are encouraged to take minions to gain the benefit of sac pawn, but minions don't count towards free points...and you can only take one minion unit anyway). The free upkeeps benefit is not very impactful (we have two casters that typically have trouble with first turn upkeeps, and only one of them is allowed in this theme) and the warlock restriction (which is nonsensical) prevents several casters that might actually want to use this theme from doing so. On top of that, the very concept of the theme is off - similar to sons of the tempest, it's a theme based almost entirely around support models, except unlike ATGM, druids can't even kill single-wound infantry well. They are a pure support unit, but the theme seems to want to take multiple units of them as mainline infantry. Maybe releases somewhere down the line fix this (though a martial blackclad unit just seems...off to me, from a thematic standpoint) but for now it's just a mess. On top of THAT, blackclads in general are not particularly good. Mist Riders are...acceptable at what they do, but expensive and inflexible. Druids are just the worst, having lost nearly all of their utility going into Mk3. So there's really very little incentive to play this theme, outside of certain janky builds. My Suggestions:
- Allow any number of minion units to be taken in theme. - Allow one minion to unit to become friendly faction. - Free models: 1 free model for every 20 points of FF units or battle engines -(Wishlist): remove free upkeeps clause, allow one minion warbeast to be taken by a blackclad warlock. - FIX Firetrucking druids of orboros. Another thing I dislike about our themes is how restricted druids are (and yes, I know I said they're shitty). We are playing Circle Orboros. Druids ARE the Circle Orboros. The base unit of druids should be available in every theme. I CAN see an argument for not having them in Devourer's Host (Tharn are kind of their own thing, and seem to be more 'allies' of the Circle than vassals (like the wolf-sworn) or the beast themes).
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Post by kuririnad on Dec 29, 2017 13:26:48 GMT
I agree that Secret Masters is half-formed, but that's because we are almost certainly missing models as yet unreleased from the theme. And while Druids and Mist Riders might need some work to be both useful and not overlap with other things in faction, Wilder, wayfarer, stone keeper, and fulcrum (which is a blackclad) are all pretty good. Yes it sucks that Kromac1 can't work with the theme, but like you said Tharn are kind of their own thing.
Also, weird rules question: if you take a feralgeist or gremlin swarm, can you sac pawn nonmagical damage to them and they take nothing? So then the only thing killing your druids at range is magical, eyeless sight, nonelemental damage?
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Post by newangel on Dec 29, 2017 13:33:02 GMT
I think a large part of the issue isn't the themes themselves, but that currently the quality of models within certain themes aren't up to scratch. The only exception I feel is Secret Masters which is simply terrible since the benefits AND the models are just awful. Using Bones and Devourer's Host as examples:
-Bones They had a mini CID already so most of the core pieces function as intended. While a few outliers exist (Woldstalkers are the big one for me) it can be built as either a melee based armour cracker under Bradigus, an attrition monster with Baldur2 or a combined arms build that brings multiple tools to the table - eKrueger or Baldur1 spring to mind. While not perfect it shows how a well designed theme has lots of variation in how it is played and built based around the Warlock.
-Devourer's Host I've tried it exclusively with Una2. Personally I think she does the most for it and gives it dedicated direction as an anti-infantry build while bringing a reasonable battlegroup that can deal with most armour. I've also seen it being taken with Krueger 1, Baldur1 and I can see a case being made for Wurmwood running it effectively. However I see a theme (no pun intended) with all 4 of these Warlocks - they protect them on the approach. While the build itself is designed to mulch infantry they simply don't arrive without Warlock support when running into guns. And while dedicated gun-lines seem to be less common, my experience into even combined arms lists has not been very successful. I feel that while this theme can handle some very specific matchups, it also has a lot of weaknesses. Fortunately one of the matches it is pretty great into is the Witch Coven which immediately makes it worth considering as a pair for anything. My hope is that the Tharn CID will make them a little bit more sturdy on the approach and hit a smidgeon harder when the remnants of the unit arrives.
With regards to Wolf Sworn and our living heavies it's pretty obvious they need tweaking. Comparing our new and shiny 14pt heavy to a 17/18/19 point Warpwolf shows that disparity pretty heavily. The Wolf Sworn probably don't need tweaking too much but the theme benefits seem contradictory - Take WolfSworn for free points. And Warbeasts gain Tracker. But your living beasts don't actually have Pathfinder!
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Post by kuririnad on Dec 29, 2017 13:46:55 GMT
I keep hearing "living beasts don't have Pathfinder" and that strikes me as untrue. Of the generic warbeasts: 3 satyrs and 1.5 warpwolves don't have it. 3 Griffins, 3 Arguses, and 1.5 warpwolves do have it. So, the statement is factually invalid. (.5 on both sides is Pureblood to represent warp ghostly).
Just wanted to set that straight.
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Post by newangel on Dec 29, 2017 14:04:49 GMT
If you want to be technical none of the Griffins have it either. Though I think the point stands that if you want to kill something with living warbeasts that's on the other side of a forest and you have no teleport available you usually aren't gonna get the job done.
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Post by oncomingstorm on Dec 29, 2017 20:19:21 GMT
I keep hearing "living beasts don't have Pathfinder" and that strikes me as untrue. Of the generic warbeasts: 3 satyrs and 1.5 warpwolves don't have it. 3 Griffins, 3 Arguses, and 1.5 warpwolves do have it. So, the statement is factually invalid. (.5 on both sides is Pureblood to represent warp ghostly). Just wanted to set that straight. Secret masters hits the trifecta of 'bad theme design' factors. Bad models, with insufficient options, with theme benefits that are actively fighting against one another. Take away the first two, and the last one still leaves secret masters as a poorly designed theme. It's that bad. The only other theme that even approaches it in terms of poor design is Legions of Dawn (free points for sentinels/benefits to jacks/said jacks can't even come out of warcaster points). No, you cannot sac pawn to an incorporeal model while it is incorporeal - I believe this is covered under the rules for sac pawn. It's technically correct that many Circle living beasts have pathfinder. However, of those beasts, many are simply not worth taking (razorwing, rotterhorn, winter argus,) and many of the others don't have the ability to crack armor/aren't frontline beasts at all (the moonhound is pure ranged support; in most lists, the wild argus is an animus bot). The only two mainline beasts with pathfinder (which is where is actually matters) are the scarfell griffon (which already HAS tracker) and the Stalker (which is literally the only living heavy that gets unqualified use out of tracker). Warp ghostly isn't even remotely the same, considering that the pureblood is one of the most pillowfisted heavies in the game without warping strength. There's some cuteness with charging through a forest for weird spray angles, but it's not what I'd call 'good'. Compare our roster to Legion (all pathfinder all the time) Trolls or Skorne (access to Rush, though it still sucks for trolls because of the reliance on rage) or Minions (numerous ways to hand out pathfinder/ghostly, including caster inependent ways) and Circle's access to pathfinder (on our living beasts) is utter crap. Add to that the fact that we have NO caster independent ways of granting pathfinder, and all of one caster dependent way of granting pathfinder, and Circle comes out looking pretty shitty. as for Tracker, it's just a terrible theme benefit. At best, and even if all of our beasts miraculously gained pathfinder/we got access to rush, it would STILL come down to a coin flip as to whether the table has a relevant, reasonably sized forest to play around (kind of like why treewalker is just a poorly designed and nearly impossible to balance rule for Tharn). Giving Circle the ability to make forests doesn't even help make it more relevant, because then all it does is slightly alleviate some order of activations issues.
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demonic
Junior Strategist
Posts: 649
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Post by demonic on Dec 30, 2017 0:53:51 GMT
x.O; wow, talk about raining on a parade.
Bones may not seem to have great benefits but, in reality, I have yet to see someone lose while using it. With theme, it provides a perfect balance of overall scenario pressure and both attrition as well as armor cracking.
Call of the Wild requires the appropriate casters, yet some of the lists I've seen are just ridiculous. If/when the warpwolves get their point costs reduced by 1 or 2, you'll be seeing it as quite the murderous theme.
Devour's Host is the kind of list most factions would fall in love with. "yeah, I'm just going to take my regular list and give all the beasts RFP and healing. Oh, and that thing that lets me chain kill entire armies? yeah, I'm gonna get to distribute a few of them freely now. enjoy ^-^"
Wild Hunt... needs work
Secret Masters... incomplete
It is always a bother when people complain about receiving presents they didn't ask for.
For the opener-
I'd need to see your list of possessed models before I could just spout out what you need next. For right now, bones is definitely our strongest choice, but it's assassination potential really isn't the best. Put the shifting stones as high up as possible with a wold guardian directly behind them. First turn, run the wold as far up into the shifting stone triangle as possible. Then activate the shifting stones and teleport the wold an additional 8 inches. With 20 arm and plenty of boxes, you'll have plenty of contention right off the bat and force the opponent to come to you. The Devour's Host lists I've seen run strong off of heart eater chains to clear the masses with more powerful beasts for a backing. All lists that aren't bones will need 2 wild argi. If you want to go into CotW you really need to open your inventory of beasts and see how each one works in tandom with the others.
For Others- 1 razorwing w/primal and synergy (kaya3) or Forced Evolution (kaya2) trampling across a field. figure out the average damage per model on a unit of trollkin champs...
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Post by elshinare on Dec 30, 2017 1:04:47 GMT
For the opener-
I'd need to see your list of possessed models before I could just spout out what you need next. For right now, bones is definitely our strongest choice, but it's assassination potential really isn't the best. Put the shifting stones as high up as possible with a wold guardian directly behind them. First turn, run the wold as far up into the shifting stone triangle as possible. Then activate the shifting stones and teleport the wold an additional 8 inches. With 20 arm and plenty of boxes, you'll have plenty of contention right off the bat and force the opponent to come to you. The Devour's Host lists I've seen run strong off of heart eater chains to clear the masses with more powerful beasts for a backing. All lists that aren't bones will need 2 wild argi. If you want to go into CotW you really need to open your inventory of beasts and see how each one works in tandom with the others.
For Others- 1 razorwing w/primal and synergy (kaya3) or Forced Evolution (kaya2) trampling across a field. figure out the average damage per model on a unit of trollkin champs...[/quote]
Right now my list of owned models is pretty meh. Tanith Pureblood 2x Gorax wild Argus Shifting Stones Druid wilder Wayfarer Skinwalkers.
Will be buying the UA for Skinwalkers in a couple weeks, then going for Reeves and the UA. Possibly after that may buy the box army that has Kromack 2, Ghetorix, Feral, Stalker, 2 Rotterhorn (which I may mod to be scarsfells via magnetics), 2 shifting stones. But that's a March purchase. But my opinion is mainly from reading lists, looking at our themes vs other factions and watching games being played out on YouTube.
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demonic
Junior Strategist
Posts: 649
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Post by demonic on Dec 30, 2017 1:28:42 GMT
a cheap get would be a sentry stone along with a caster or two. You'll have to pile on a LOT of cash if you want to go the bones route, as nothing but the shifting stones and wayfarer are eligible for it. I'd hold back on the reeves for now, same with the skinwalker UA. Instead, focus on Devour's Host. Kromack 2, ghetorix, stalker, pureblood, gorax, wild argus or two, shifting stones, the path you're taking for getting models would probably be best to focus on tharns until you save up enough to start buying into wolds. For now, keep your eyes out for wolf riders and their solo, Tharn Ravagers + attachment, Tharn Shaman, nightwitch, and bloodweavers.
Wolfriders are super fast getting up the board and have pow 9 weaponmaster assault shots. With their solo, they can also hit reliably too. Tharn Ravagers have the heart eater advantage, but when they have their attachment is when it shines. With the attachment, they all gain overtake (move 1 inch after killing an enemy model) So every time you kill an enemy living or undead model you can move 1 inch and use the heart from the enemy you just killed to buy an additional attack... and then chain it. every single one of them work that way so you have a lot of chances for huge chains. The bloodweavers are a little more on the weak side, but they are our assassin styled unit. Once they kill something, they can make it "pop" and hit everything within a 3 inch AoE take a pow 8 blast damage roll. With the nightwitch, they gain killing spree, which is basically the exact same thing as the Ravager's chain kill.
The reason why I noted that you probably shouldn't go for bones yet... 4 heavies, 4 lessers, 3 solos, 1 battle engine, and a new caster would be the minimum of your purchases... so around $375-425 USD and that doesn't include if you want to go the garg route.
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Post by oncomingstorm on Dec 30, 2017 21:48:12 GMT
x.O; wow, talk about raining on a parade. Bones may not seem to have great benefits but, in reality, I have yet to see someone lose while using it. With theme, it provides a perfect balance of overall scenario pressure and both attrition as well as armor cracking. Call of the Wild requires the appropriate casters, yet some of the lists I've seen are just ridiculous. If/when the warpwolves get their point costs reduced by 1 or 2, you'll be seeing it as quite the murderous theme. Devour's Host is the kind of list most factions would fall in love with. "yeah, I'm just going to take my regular list and give all the beasts RFP and healing. Oh, and that thing that lets me chain kill entire armies? yeah, I'm gonna get to distribute a few of them freely now. enjoy ^-^" Wild Hunt... needs work Secret Masters... incomplete It is always a bother when people complain about receiving presents they didn't ask for. For the opener- I'd need to see your list of possessed models before I could just spout out what you need next. For right now, bones is definitely our strongest choice, but it's assassination potential really isn't the best. Put the shifting stones as high up as possible with a wold guardian directly behind them. First turn, run the wold as far up into the shifting stone triangle as possible. Then activate the shifting stones and teleport the wold an additional 8 inches. With 20 arm and plenty of boxes, you'll have plenty of contention right off the bat and force the opponent to come to you. The Devour's Host lists I've seen run strong off of heart eater chains to clear the masses with more powerful beasts for a backing. All lists that aren't bones will need 2 wild argi. If you want to go into CotW you really need to open your inventory of beasts and see how each one works in tandom with the others. For Others- 1 razorwing w/primal and synergy (kaya3) or Forced Evolution (kaya2) trampling across a field. figure out the average damage per model on a unit of trollkin champs... As someone who has played a substantial amount of DevHost, Devourer's host is a theme that does one thing (kill infantry) and does that one thing very, very well. However, it has a number of significant weaknesses, and while the don't all need to be a addressed (it's good for a theme not to do everything well), at lest some of them should be. These issues are: - it doesn't crack armor. Part of this is linked to Circle living beasts not being in a great spot at the moment, but it's largely down to the fact that the theme is focused on the infantry, and all of the infantry in the list are good at killing other infantry en masse and not much else. The one exception (bloodtrackers) are FA1, and still aren't great at armor cracking. - it dies to shooting. Even outside of dedicated shooting lists, Tharn melt to moderate pow, moderate accuracy shooting. Unless there's a big ol' forest in the middle of the table, or you're taking a dedicated delivery caster, you're taking massive casualties on the way in. - The RFP is living only, when the most common recursion lists are construct (CoC) or undead (GF) based. This limits it's applicability immensely. The healing is nice, but niche. - Right now, heart tokens distribution is in an unfortunate place. The death wolves are the clear best choice for heart tokens, because any other model can be sniped out and killed before it can use them. However, the death wolves need heart tokens to work at all, meaning you have to give them the heart tokens, and you can't really use them in any other theme. On top of that, they aren't actually tharn, and so don't count towards theme benefits. Some of these issues need to be fixed. At the moment, I use the list in pairings mainly when I want to scare opponents off of their infantry-heavy lists, but it has a ton of seriously bad matchups. Secret masters is both unfinished and badly designed. Even if you add a bunch of new units to it, the theme benefits are poorly constructed and contradictory. As for trampling razorwings...no. They threat 10" (realistically 8", accounting for base size) from their starting position, Kaya2/3 have no way to speed them up or give them out of activation movement, and they die to a stiff breeze without stealth. They're simply not a viable strategy.
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