isotope
Junior Strategist
Posts: 634 
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Post by isotope on Dec 23, 2017 1:56:34 GMT
Today I was talking with a friend about what to pair with my Magnus2 list. The only "requirement" for the list was that it includes my Galleon. I was tossing some ideas around and one idea I tossed up there was Bart double galleon. I only owned one Galleon and I was like " man, I really don't wanna pay to have another Galleon painted" so I jumped on ebay and there was a fully painted Galleon and Bart for sale and the seller was in my area for a good price. I am now the owner of two galleons! So the planned pairing is to do Magnus2/Bart in a extreme armor skew:
Mercenary Army - 75 / 75 points
[Theme] The Irregulars
(Montador 1) Captain Bartolo Montador [+26]
- Galleon [39]
- Galleon [39]
- Mangler [15]
- Sylys Wyshnalyrr, The Seeker [0(4)]
Eiryss, Mage Hunter of Ios [0(7)]
Orin Midwinter, Rogue Inquisitor [0(5)]
Ragman [0(4)]
Lady Aiyana & Master Holt [8]
Mercenary Army - 75 / 75 points
[Theme] The Irregulars
(Magnus 2) Magnus the Warlord [+28]
- Mariner [14]
- Nomad [11]
- Nomad [11]
- Nomad [11]
- Nomad [11]
- Renegade [10]
- Sylys Wyshnalyrr, The Seeker [0(4)]
Eiryss, Mage Hunter of Ios [0(7)]
Orin Midwinter, Rogue Inquisitor [0(5)]
Horgenhold Artillery Corps [6]
Horgenhold Artillery Corps [6]
Idrian Skirmishers (max) [15]
- Idrian Skirmisher Chieftain & Guide [0(5)]
Lady Aiyana & Master Holt [8]
The plan for the pair is to be able to easily establish which list my opponent will drop ( their list that can better handle cracking a TON of high armor boxes, either 4 ARM 21 Nomads or 2 ARM 22 Galleons and a ARM 22 Mangler.) I've identified some certain things that the lists don't want to see such as Magnus doesn't want to see parry, ghosty, incorporeal stuff to get past being jammed up by 4 really fast Nomads flying across the board and Bart doesn't want to see no knockdown ( to invalidate the feat), blessed ( unyielding doesn't care but batten down does) and blast immune high def/or stealth infantry. Both casters will be sitting at 14/19 with escort/batten down up and will be somewhat hard to kill. I had been planning to jump into Macbain or Ash as my pair in Lael but I'm holding off on jumping into that theme until I see more from Crucible Guard( I'd hate to buy into Cygnar or PoM options then have CG look like the better choice. For the ease of entering this list with what I already have it will be interesting to see how it plays out and will further help me identify what weaknesses my Magnus list has. Maybe by summer time when CG comes out I'll have a better idea what pairing might work better ( if it doesn't work out).
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Post by eterenal on Dec 23, 2017 18:43:35 GMT
Your Bart list will have a very difficult time not losing on scenario on Spread the Net, Standoff, and to a lesser extent, Recon. The Magnus list is probably good enough that you can just drop it into those scenarios, but I don't like the idea of running any list in the current scenario packet that doesn't have some throw away contesting models and some strong solos for controlling my own flags.
I'm not going to completely poop on the idea since you've already invested in the double Galleon. So changes to that list I'd see the Mangler turned into two Talons which would at least help a little in contesting. Another option would be to drop Aiyana and Holt, making you weaker overall into incorporeal (though there are scenarios where you'll have the magic weapon objective), to get some better contesting/scoring models in. If you drop the Mangler and Aiyana & Holt you can add a Talon, Buccaneer, and two units of Kayazy Eliminators.
Sylys also isn't really doing much other than letting you camp one on turns you swap Hot Shot. Could consider turning him into Anastasia or Hutchuck for models that do work and also help you on scenario.
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isotope
Junior Strategist
Posts: 634
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Post by isotope on Dec 23, 2017 19:14:16 GMT
Your Bart list will have a very difficult time not losing on scenario on Spread the Net, Standoff, and to a lesser extent, Recon. The Magnus list is probably good enough that you can just drop it into those scenarios, but I don't like the idea of running any list in the current scenario packet that doesn't have some throw away contesting models and some strong solos for controlling my own flags. I'm not going to completely poop on the idea since you've already invested in the double Galleon. So changes to that list I'd see the Mangler turned into two Talons which would at least help a little in contesting. Another option would be to drop Aiyana and Holt, making you weaker overall into incorporeal (though there are scenarios where you'll have the magic weapon objective), to get some better contesting/scoring models in. If you drop the Mangler and Aiyana & Holt you can add a Talon, Buccaneer, and two units of Kayazy Eliminators. Sylys also isn't really doing much other than letting you camp one on turns you swap Hot Shot. Could consider turning him into Anastasia or Hutchuck for models that do work and also help you on scenario. If the bart list struggles on scenario I'll most likely take the mangler out and put in Idrians and see how that plays out. I've considered taking Sylys out for Reinholdt for a stealth answer( then i could magic weapons and reveal a gremlin swarm for a galleon to kill it). The idea behind the Mangler is to be a "Bait"/Contest piece. Send it in to contest a zone and kill a heavy with it but keep so anything they send in to kill it will be in threat range of the galleons. Removing a no knockdown armor 22 Mangler is going to take heavy commitment and a galleon should be able to deal with whatever they send in to kill it. A+H gives me magic weapons, makes the Galleons P+S 26 with Ragman and Harm and gives me advance move on the Mangler giving me the ability to get it out front to fulfill it's role as the Bait/Contest piece. If I'm able to kill one heavy with the mangler, kill whatever they send in to kill the mangler with one galleon and kill a 3rd heavy with the other galleon a lot of lists won't have the steam to kill the Galleons at that point. I don't expect to drop Bart into too many matchups. I'm comfortable dropping Magnus2 into 85-90% of my matchups. I think what I like conceptually about the matchup is that knowing which list they will drop in most cases. Most pairings do not have 2 lists that can handle that much armor so choosing which list I want to drop into their armor cracking list should be an easy choice. I feel bart will drop better into any gunlines given his ability to shoot back and being able to hide behind 2 Galleons and batten down being effective into guns unlike unyielding( shadowfire is something I'm concerned about... will have to see terrain to establish what to drop in that matchup) |
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Post by eterenal on Dec 23, 2017 22:08:14 GMT
Your Bart list will have a very difficult time not losing on scenario on Spread the Net, Standoff, and to a lesser extent, Recon. The Magnus list is probably good enough that you can just drop it into those scenarios, but I don't like the idea of running any list in the current scenario packet that doesn't have some throw away contesting models and some strong solos for controlling my own flags. I'm not going to completely poop on the idea since you've already invested in the double Galleon. So changes to that list I'd see the Mangler turned into two Talons which would at least help a little in contesting. Another option would be to drop Aiyana and Holt, making you weaker overall into incorporeal (though there are scenarios where you'll have the magic weapon objective), to get some better contesting/scoring models in. If you drop the Mangler and Aiyana & Holt you can add a Talon, Buccaneer, and two units of Kayazy Eliminators. Sylys also isn't really doing much other than letting you camp one on turns you swap Hot Shot. Could consider turning him into Anastasia or Hutchuck for models that do work and also help you on scenario. If the bart list struggles on scenario... You can stop right there. It will struggle on scenario. I understand the synergies of the rest of the list, but with no contesting elements you'll just lose to jam armies. In terms of a bait piece, a Talon does basically the same thing for half the price which was my reason for suggesting. I don't think having Bart as your second list gives you that much advantage in your matchups. Just by having Magnus with a bunch of jacks, they're going to have to drop their ARM cracking list. The only way that benefits you is if for some reason Bart were better at dealing with their answer, and my guess would be more often than not Magnus2 is still going to be better because he's a better caster with a stronger feat. You're giving yourself less tools by having two lists that have very little in the way of bodies/troops. My guess is that would outweigh any perceived benefit of forcing out their ARM cracking list. |
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shoe
Junior Strategist
Posts: 706
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Post by shoe on Dec 23, 2017 22:52:19 GMT
...if only he'd had the idea before he bought a second galleon we could have pooped in it for him...
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isotope
Junior Strategist
Posts: 634
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Post by isotope on Dec 23, 2017 22:59:48 GMT
I disagree that Bart will struggle on scenario. Sure it's not the best list at scoring a lot in every game but 2 armor 22 huge bases can contest a lot of zones/flags. Just by eliminating your opponents ability to win quickly on scenario. If I see that they have a really fast Jam list in their pair it's not very likely that I'd drop bart unless I felt his feat would hold off their jam long enough for me to get into a strong position to contest. The advantage I think this matchup provides is that it takes some of the guess work out of which list your opponent will drop. If they have a list to deal with armor and a list to deal with a lot of dudes it's fair to say that looking at my pairing they'll auto drop their armor cracking list. By knowing that is what is likely to happen I can analyze that list of theirs more closely and determine which one of my lists has a better chance into that matchup. It lets me make a choice between two lists while they're most likely stuck with one choice. I mentioned certain weaknesses I feel each list has above and hope to further identify which matchups are more favorable for which list after some play testing. If the pairing doesn't work out I'm going to most likely go into some lael resistance list but am holding off on that until I see what kind of options crucible guard opens up for that kind of list. Mercs isn'y my main faction so I don't mind doing some silly stuff while waiting for some stuff to finish being painted for my Ret pairing I'm planning on playing for most of 2018.
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Post by eterenal on Dec 24, 2017 2:12:11 GMT
As an aside, please use paragraphs to separate your thoughts. Your posts are really a pain to read through.
Yes, you've got an "advantage" in that you probably know what list they're going to drop. But the reason you know that is because you brought two rocks and they chose their paper list. One of these rocks is clearly better than the other (Magnus2) in 90% of situations (you said so yourself) and so you've sold out on the rock plan for a list that you're going to play 10% of the time.
You're correct, this is a silly thing to do, and that's okay. I think you'll find that not only is this strategy not very good, it's kind of boring. You've got two pretty similar playstyles in your lists. A second list will give you more tools and a change of pace so that you're not just pushing the same pile of metal forward every game.
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isotope
Junior Strategist
Posts: 634
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Post by isotope on Dec 24, 2017 2:24:24 GMT
...if only he'd had the idea before he bought a second galleon we could have pooped in it for him... please go away shoe, I don't value your opinion or want to take the time to respond to you. |
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isotope
Junior Strategist
Posts: 634
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Post by isotope on Dec 24, 2017 2:34:17 GMT
As an aside, please use paragraphs to separate your thoughts. Your posts are really a pain to read through. Yes, you've got an "advantage" in that you probably know what list they're going to drop. But the reason you know that is because you brought two rocks and they chose their paper list. One of these rocks is clearly better than the other (Magnus2) in 90% of situations (you said so yourself) and so you've sold out on the rock plan for a list that you're going to play 10% of the time. You're correct, this is a silly thing to do, and that's okay. I think you'll find that not only is this strategy not very good, it's kind of boring. You've got two pretty similar playstyles in your lists. A second list will give you more tools and a change of pace so that you're not just pushing the same pile of metal forward every game. I had been pairing Magnus2 with Caine3 b/c they were the only two merc casters I owned. I wanted my second list to cover anything that I felt was not a good matchup for Magnus and also to include my Galleon b/c it was painted for me by a really good painted and I enjoy having it on the table ( I don't play a colossal in Ret). When the chance to get a second (also commission painted) Galleon that has a similar look/feel to mine ( all rusty and such) for an amazing price I jumped on it. Even if the list isn't great and I only play it every once in awhile it will be a nice piece to add to my collection and help me pass the time until I find a better list to pair with Magnus. The most recent thing I had considered for my pairing was MacBain in Lael with Galleon with either Exemplar errants and choir or stormblades and trencher commandos. That list is still an option but I'm wanting to hold off until I see what other options come along in CG CID. |
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shoe
Junior Strategist
Posts: 706
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Post by shoe on Dec 24, 2017 2:46:21 GMT
...if only he'd had the idea before he bought a second galleon we could have pooped in it for him... please go away shoe, I don't value your opinion or want to take the time to respond to you. but i haven't even opined!!!!! |
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Post by eterenal on Dec 24, 2017 15:46:15 GMT
Totally understandable Iso. The perceived flaw is not that you bought into Galleons, so much as you wanting to pair them with a list that requires a very similar answer and thus makes your opponents choice easier rather than harder.
It's hard to advise you on a good pair for Bart when you have a limited collection. Personally I think I'd go Thexus or Damiano, both powerful infantry lists with strong scenario presence.
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isotope
Junior Strategist
Posts: 634
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Post by isotope on Dec 24, 2017 18:28:53 GMT
Totally understandable Iso. The perceived flaw is not that you bought into Galleons, so much as you wanting to pair them with a list that requires a very similar answer and thus makes your opponents choice easier rather than harder. It's hard to advise you on a good pair for Bart when you have a limited collection. Personally I think I'd go Thexus or Damiano, both powerful infantry lists with strong scenario presence. I think that's where our viewpoints differ. I'm looking at it that making my opponents choice being easier as a bonus. That telegraphs to me which list they're going to drop enabling me to make my choice easily. Your concern is that because both of my lists are armor skews that my enemy will be able to choose their list easily therefore beating both my lists. I feel by choosing the list that can nullify some of their tools that help them crack armor then once on the table trying to eliminate key pieces that enable them to crack heavy armor I can overpower their lists ability to crack the armor that I have presented therefore giving me an advantage in the attrition game. Some of the factors I have thought of when choosing which list to drop are the following: Does their answer to armor cracking involve a strong gunline? Bart Does their armor cracking rely on blessed weaponry? Magnus2 Does their armor cracking rely on casting offensive spells like parasite? Bart ( with Orin within 3" of both galleons) Does their armor cracking list have knockdown immunity on it's heavy hitters? Magnus2 Does their armor cracking list have ghostly, parry, incorporeal to get past my Nomads if I use them to try and jam them out of scenario? Bart Is their armor cracking list very fast and will jam galleons out of scenario? Magnus2 Does their list's heavies have some kind of tech to stop Galleons' Harpoon shots? ( like lots of shield guards) Magnus2 Does the table have a terrain feature that could be advantageous to one of my casters? What is the opponent's feat? How fast is the opponent's army? Does the scenario give one of my casters an advantage. ( Magnus2 feat typically LOVES scenarios where he can score a lot of points on one turn because feat prevents opponent contesting in a relevant manner) I think after playing the pairing for a few tournaments I will be able to more easily identify any weaknesses/strengths each list has and possible also identify what weaknesses the pairing has as a whole. Like I've said I do feel that Magnus2 will still end up playing the majority of my games, and I'm fine with that. |
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Xintas
Junior Strategist
Posts: 824
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Post by Xintas on Jan 2, 2018 15:06:49 GMT
To be perfectly honest, the lists are each solid choices in their own way as part of a 2 list pairing. I agree that the mangler is eating into points that could be better spent elsewhere (Kayazay X2 + Blythe and Bull for the same cost puts 3 units in play for contesting), but the crux of the disagreement seems to be that you like forcing your opponent to choose one of their lists and you get to choose your best option into it.
That's your strategy and is not eterenal's. More conversation about "is this a 2 list pairing that is good" is not useful, as there is a fundamental difference in opinion on what makes a 2 list pairing good. Discussion about how to make a better Bart + 2Galleon list could be beneficial, however.
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