|
Post by mindwormjim on Jun 21, 2018 15:45:21 GMT
Pretty confident we won't get Side Step on the Shadowhorn. It's already janky enough as it is. Give it Pathfinder and call it a day (and frankly it's still good without it). Riphorn is a trickier one. Even if it doesn't reliably get seven attacks, six is still pretty solid. Pathfinder and +1 Strength seems like it would result in a solid model. I'm wary of the STR bonus pushing it over the edge but I'm not sure it's worth it without the buff.
|
|
|
Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Jun 21, 2018 15:52:54 GMT
Pretty confident we won't get Side Step on the Shadowhorn. It's already janky enough as it is. Give it Pathfinder and call it a day (and frankly it's still good without it). Riphorn is a trickier one. Even if it doesn't reliably get seven attacks, six is still pretty solid. Pathfinder and +1 Strength seems like it would result in a solid model. I'm wary of the STR bonus pushing it over the edge but I'm not sure it's worth it without the buff. The goats don't have pathfinder!!! I just assumed they all did, have the devs not seen Planet Earth!
|
|
|
Post by streetpizza on Jun 21, 2018 16:05:32 GMT
Math time fun!
Chance of hitting needing a 6+ is 72.22% chance of hitting it twice in a row is 72.22% x 72.22% = 52.2%
So you will get to make the chain attack slightly more than 52% of the time against a def 12 target. Not exactly reliable. The chance that all three attacks hit is even lower at 37.67%. So your chance of getting and hitting the chain attack without boosting is 37.67% which is terrible odds.
With Mat 8 from primal that all changes to 91.66% to hit one attack 84% to get the chain attack and 77% to actually hit all three. Much better but then you frenzy.
At Mat 7 we'd get 83.33 to hit the first 69.4 to get the chain and 57.9% to hit all three. I'd take those odds any day. At Mat6 you need to be boosting for the chain attack to form any part of your game plan and at best its a nice bonus.
So ... is this a good time to discuss the raptor's Mat of 5?
|
|
|
Post by jisidro on Jun 21, 2018 16:13:52 GMT
jisidro 1 - 6 vs 12 on 2d6 is more than 50%. It's something around 70% or more. I don't remember. internet calc says 72.22% but I don't trust that 2 - You're not the only faction with 1 non-caster damage buff. So that doesn't mean you need more/less/better. Also, Risk vs. Reward is a good thing. Get +4 stat combo and frenzy or miss/fail to kill. 3 - Everything dies. We build lists to specifically kill jacks in a single turn. Why should beast be expected to survive the same stuff? The Primal argument has existed forever and will continue as will the choir/junior/rush/etc argument. Also, all my mat 6 beasts would like to argue that it's not a requirement to be mat 7 to beat stuff up well. 1- 6+ on 2D6 is 72%. Hitting 72% twice in 2 attempts is 52% (0.72*0.72)... That where the 50% comes from. 2- In your argument you forgot to add "And Frenzy", it's Miss/Fail to kill AND frenzy. You have no chance to avoid the frenzy just like you can't avoid the fury cost, it's a cost. It's not Risk/Reward, it's a cost. 3- I didn't say that. I said strenuous vs easily. My problem is not with MAT 6 beasts, it's with MAT 6 beasts vs MAT 7 warjacks.
|
|
|
Post by paradox on Jun 21, 2018 16:21:09 GMT
Assuming MAT 6 will hit 2 initials to get an extra attack is a good way to lose that attack. Saying a Riphorn gets 7 attacks is overblowing his base power lvl. Like the rotterhorn exemplifies very well, if you get a lot of initials you get a lot out of buffs. The fact that Circle has goats with 3 initials, Primal, synergy and doesn't use them (by and large) but on the occasions it uses living beasts goes for the expensive 2 initial wolves shows that something is wrong with the cheap beast concept. I think a way to fix cheap beasts is to change the cheap warjacks. Close. Im not sure that cheap jacks need to change so much as “cheap” beasts ended up 2-3pts more than cheap jacks. The gnarlhorn could be 10-11pts. If you get a 12/18 heavy for 10pts, SPD5, FURY3, MAT6, Counterslam, and pillowfist PS hurt alot less The shadowhorn could be 11, though its the least bad of the goats and work pretty well. The riphorn could be 12-13, maybe with adjustments along with.
|
|
|
Post by paradox on Jun 21, 2018 16:22:40 GMT
Pretty confident we won't get Side Step on the Shadowhorn. It's already janky enough as it is. Give it Pathfinder and call it a day (and frankly it's still good without it). Riphorn is a trickier one. Even if it doesn't reliably get seven attacks, six is still pretty solid. Pathfinder and +1 Strength seems like it would result in a solid model. I'm wary of the STR bonus pushing it over the edge but I'm not sure it's worth it without the buff. The shadowhorn is close, but 12pts is a tad steep too. Add Pathfinder and cut to 11pts could be an option, too.
|
|
|
Post by jisidro on Jun 21, 2018 16:31:09 GMT
Pretty confident we won't get Side Step on the Shadowhorn. It's already janky enough as it is. Give it Pathfinder and call it a day (and frankly it's still good without it). Riphorn is a trickier one. Even if it doesn't reliably get seven attacks, six is still pretty solid. Pathfinder and +1 Strength seems like it would result in a solid model. I'm wary of the STR bonus pushing it over the edge but I'm not sure it's worth it without the buff. I won't complain about +1 STR but I don't see it happenning. It looks Grymkin lvl beast stupid... Perhaps Grymkin beasts is the new black? I'd like Pathfinder, high-use animus and/or bulldoze base. Pretty confident we won't get Side Step on the Shadowhorn. It's already janky enough as it is. Give it Pathfinder and call it a day (and frankly it's still good without it). Riphorn is a trickier one. Even if it doesn't reliably get seven attacks, six is still pretty solid. Pathfinder and +1 Strength seems like it would result in a solid model. I'm wary of the STR bonus pushing it over the edge but I'm not sure it's worth it without the buff. The goats don't have pathfinder!!! I just assumed they all did, have the devs not seen Planet Earth! I have rule of thumb for when something could probably get a buff... When someone asks you the stats on a model and his guess is below mark it's probably due some sort of buff... this has happened twice now in games with me... Shadowhorn goes in during Kromac2's Feat... "POW 15 Dice off XXX" - "Don't forget the feat" says my opponent" - "I didn't. It's POW 13 base" - Odd look my way. The other time was with primal same situation. It's a janky quasi-heavy priced at the top lvl hitting heavies (Juggernaut, Ironclad, Slayer, Crusader or almost 2 Dervishes)...
|
|
chuggyg
Junior Strategist
Posts: 474
|
Post by chuggyg on Jun 21, 2018 16:42:22 GMT
You're all also ignoring the other side of the coin where warjacks typically have considerably lower def (and often equal arm) profiles than warbeasts. So while they're more accurate, they're also easier to hit.
E: Circle also has the advantage of the best combined profiles in the game: A number of our beasts (Pureblood, Stalker, Riphorn, plus some characters) DEF+ARM adds up to 31, whereas I don't believe this occurs in any other faction outside of maybe the occasional character. Most other factions end up with a combined 29-30. Oddly enough, our Mat7 warbeast has 1 less armor, putting him at a combined 30. I don't think we can discuss a shortcoming in offensive stats without also considering defensive stats as well.
|
|
|
Post by jisidro on Jun 21, 2018 16:48:57 GMT
They didn't lose DEF so they got better in comparision.
|
|
chuggyg
Junior Strategist
Posts: 474
|
Post by chuggyg on Jun 21, 2018 16:51:02 GMT
They didn't lose DEF so they got better in comparision. Considering they didn't get played in MK2 aside from the 'free' battlegroup points, they sort of had to?
|
|
|
Post by oncomingstorm on Jun 21, 2018 16:58:23 GMT
They didn't lose DEF so they got better in comparision. Considering they didn't get played in MK2 aside from the 'free' battlegroup points, they sort of had to? They didn't get played because no power up meant that they were always a burden on your caster, even if you only wanted them to run. Look at the juggernaut - subjective point cost reduction, Mat increase, AND power up put it over the top relative to warbeasts. As for Def + Arm = 30 statlines, not all stat distributions are created equal. The current environment of warmachine lets many top lists buff their Mat/Rat to 10+ rather trivially, and unlike armor defense is a binary stat - if your opponent is Mat 11, Def 12 or Def 14 makes no difference to them. Add in the fact that Warpwolves have fewer boxes than any other expensive heavy in the game, and...that defensive statline stops looking impressive.
|
|
|
Post by bloodhawk on Jun 21, 2018 16:58:54 GMT
I think the key point you guys are hitting on is the difference between Beasts and Jacks changed significantly in the MkII to MkIII transition. I believe everyone would agree that fury was the more powerful system in MkII, but in MkIII they are either on par or Warmachine is slightly ahead. The reason I would argue that Warmachine is slightly ahead is that not only do Jacks have better stats than Hordes in general, they also are cheaper and get free resources every turn (at no cost) in power up.
IMO the balance of power between systems would have shifted to be about even with just power up being introduced, that and the fact that beasts are oftentimes quite a bit more expensive and you have this odd situation where Jacks feel superior in most ways to beasts. If I recall the MkIII transition also gave out more Mat7 than existed in MkII, but my memory could be off.
I don't think anyone can really dispute the above statements because PP has adjusted the points for effectively every beast that has entered CID, and in some cases adjusted the points significantly. It seems like the new points cost for beasts is hitting a nice sweet spot where they feel reasonably costed and able to compete fairly with Jacks.
|
|
|
Post by streetpizza on Jun 21, 2018 18:05:04 GMT
I think the key point you guys are hitting on is the difference between Beasts and Jacks changed significantly in the MkII to MkIII transition. I believe everyone would agree that fury was the more powerful system in MkII, but in MkIII they are either on par or Warmachine is slightly ahead. The reason I would argue that Warmachine is slightly ahead is that not only do Jacks have better stats than Hordes in general, they also are cheaper and get free resources every turn (at no cost) in power up. IMO the balance of power between systems would have shifted to be about even with just power up being introduced, that and the fact that beasts are oftentimes quite a bit more expensive and you have this odd situation where Jacks feel superior in most ways to beasts. If I recall the MkIII transition also gave out more Mat7 than existed in MkII, but my memory could be off. I don't think anyone can really dispute the above statements because PP has adjusted the points for effectively every beast that has entered CID, and in some cases adjusted the points significantly. It seems like the new points cost for beasts is hitting a nice sweet spot where they feel reasonably costed and able to compete fairly with Jacks. I hate to drag this thread way off topic but I've often wondered what the landscape would've looked like if they had just added power up and pre-measuring to MKII and called it a day. Granted I'm glad they nuked the stupid theme force structure they used to have but that could've also been accomplished without the edition change.
|
|
|
Post by macdaddy on Jun 21, 2018 18:31:18 GMT
So ... is this a good time to discuss the raptor's Mat of 5? Mat 6 is the only solution...that and points reduction. Then I think I will be happy. If we are Lucky the Wrath will also get a slight points drop
|
|
|
Post by ForEver_Blight on Jun 21, 2018 18:37:56 GMT
Add in the fact that Warpwolves have fewer boxes than any other expensive heavy in the game, and...that defensive statline stops looking impressive. This is just not true...
Carnivean - 30HP Angelius - 25HP
Gladiator - 30HP Mauler - 30HP Wrastler - 29HP
Feral Warpwolf - 30HP Pureblood - 28HP Stalker - 27HP
Stalker could clearly use a bump to 30.
But saying they all have fewer boxes than any other heavy as "fact" is just blatantly false. They are within a reasonable spot between low and high.
Now I before the torrent of "but point cost". We have well established they need a point or maybe 2 knocked off to bring them more in line with stuff as cheap as the others (read: not Carnivean)
I will also say I am not going to give any time of day to the "but rage on Mauler/Wrastler is better than primal" mess.
|
|