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Post by macdaddy on Jun 21, 2018 0:38:03 GMT
paradox and in non PoD list you don’t see whelps sooo suddenly a factor again... Unless a caster is running 1 heavy and a light, they are gonna have issues without fury support.
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Post by paradox on Jun 21, 2018 1:30:46 GMT
paradox and in non PoD list you don’t see whelps sooo suddenly a factor again... Unless a caster is running 1 heavy and a light, they are gonna have issues without fury support. Well, out of PoD thats about it, right. . Madrak1 BoH, Borka or some shit in SotN. Problem solves itself. Themes working as intended.
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Post by macdaddy on Jun 21, 2018 2:04:24 GMT
paradox and in non PoD list you don’t see whelps sooo suddenly a factor again... Unless a caster is running 1 heavy and a light, they are gonna have issues without fury support. Well, out of PoD thats about it, right. . Madrak1 BoH, Borka or some shit in SotN. Problem solves itself. Themes working as intended. Yeah why need heavies when you have champs and bears. Heh..
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Post by elshinare on Jun 21, 2018 5:56:46 GMT
Well, out of PoD thats about it, right. . Madrak1 BoH, Borka or some shit in SotN. Problem solves itself. Themes working as intended. Yeah why need heavies when you have champs and bears. Heh.. Tharn CiD will make Ravagers monsters so we can take just a heavy and a light and have a relevant list, we hope, pray, sacrifice virgins and kittens for?
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Jun 21, 2018 14:05:38 GMT
Honestly I don't understand the whole "Riphorn gets 7-8 attacks"...First he is fury 3 mat 6...need to boost pretty much every attack to hit most other heavies and lights, unless you're under Kromac 2 or a full synergy Kaya 3. right? oh, or primal, but next turn you may as well foge'aboudit free charge 3 initials grab and smash 3 fury
Makes for 7 attacks.
Mat 6 will hit the average Def 12 heavy more than 50% of the time.
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Post by jisidro on Jun 21, 2018 14:22:38 GMT
Assuming MAT 6 will hit 2 initials to get an extra attack is a good way to lose that attack. Saying a Riphorn gets 7 attacks is overblowing his base power lvl.
Like the rotterhorn exemplifies very well, if you get a lot of initials you get a lot out of buffs. The fact that Circle has goats with 3 initials, Primal, synergy and doesn't use them (by and large) but on the occasions it uses living beasts goes for the expensive 2 initial wolves shows that something is wrong with the cheap beast concept. I think a way to fix cheap beasts is to change the cheap warjacks.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Jun 21, 2018 14:30:04 GMT
Assuming MAT 6 will hit 2 initials to get an extra attack is a good way to lose that attack. Saying a Riphorn gets 7 attacks is overblowing his base power lvl. Like the rotterhorn exemplifies very well, if you get a lot of initials you get a lot out of buffs. The fact that Circle has goats with 3 initials, Primal, synergy and doesn't use them (by and large) but on the occasions it uses living beasts goes for the expensive 2 initial wolves shows that something is wrong with the cheap beast concept. I think a way to fix cheap beasts is to change the cheap warjacks. -.-"
1 - I am stating nothing but the normal case. Dice can cause all 7 attacks to hit or all 6 to miss. Disregarding a model solely on "dice suck" is unreasonable. 1a - having 6 attacks on a 14pt model is still good. 7 is better.
2 - Primal does exist. It can do well. I don't see case where it's not a good thing to have as a choice. But perception is what you make it and a lot of people here like to hate it. That doesn't mean it doesn't work as intended.
3 - This is the big one. Changing cheap jacks will Not fix cheap warbeast. It just means no one gets to play those models which hurts everyone. I do not see that as a welcome design decision to take.
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Post by jisidro on Jun 21, 2018 14:57:50 GMT
1 - I am stating nothing but the normal case. Dice can cause all 7 attacks to hit or all 6 to miss. Disregarding a model solely on "dice suck" is unreasonable. 1a - having 6 attacks on a 14pt model is still good. 7 is better. IMO Normal case is not hitting 2 attacks in a row when you have a 50% to do it. Then Mauler doesn't have 8 attacks, it has 2 initials + 5 Fury + Chain attack. Both the Riphorn and the Mauler have a huge damage potential. That damage potential doesn't change the fact that the Riphorn doesn't get played in Circle, even in lists with the buffs to explode his damage potential. Why? [/div] 2 - Primal does exist. It can do well. I don't see case where it's not a good thing to have as a choice. But perception is what you make it and a lot of people here like to hate it. That doesn't mean it doesn't work as intended. [/quote] Yes, it does. It's a fantastic buff that I think has a good penalty for a caster independent buff... but ATM there are so many caster independant buffs on cheaper bodies that Primal as a sole caster independent buff feels like a trap. Even more so when the DT tends to publicly talk about Circle beasts with Primal tacked on. That is a huge issue for me because losing a beast for a turn is a huge penalty that you shouldn't have to pay each time you need to kill something 1-on-1. 3 - This is the big one. Changing cheap jacks will Not fix cheap warbeast. It just means no one gets to play those models which hurts everyone. I do not see that as a welcome design decision to take.
The problem with Satyrs, for example, is that while they don't kill a heavy warjack without strenuous buffing they get killed easily in return... Whatever kills Slayers will demolish the lower threat, lower ARM Satyrs. This means that they can't even play the Dark Horse status because they'll be building a list banking on a similar threat as the 9 slayers but worse. Much worse. Going the other way buffs XXX and creates another weak link somewhere... creating another round of boogie men and getting YYY shelved.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Jun 21, 2018 14:58:21 GMT
What if the Shadowhorn got Parry and Side-Step? it would give it tons of manoeuvrability, letting it bob and weave around like a boxer causing havoc in the back-field. Might be a bit too good as an assassination piece, as it has Leap and 3 initials to side-step and beat-back off of, but could be worth exploring.
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Post by jisidro on Jun 21, 2018 15:04:45 GMT
What if the Shadowhorn got Parry and Side-Step? it would give it tons of manoeuvrability, letting it bob and weave around like a boxer causing havoc in the back-field. Might be a bit too good as an assassination piece, as it has Leap and 3 initials to side-step and beat-back off of, but could be worth exploring. It's hard to say bad things about a Parry/Side-Step... perhaps go down to 3pts like the parry-side-stepping protectorate monks? It would be very cool. Kung-Fu goat theme seems to be the general idea but so far no goat has won the Under-18 All-Valley Karate Tournament...
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Jun 21, 2018 15:08:17 GMT
What if the Shadowhorn got Parry and Side-Step? it would give it tons of manoeuvrability, letting it bob and weave around like a boxer causing havoc in the back-field. Might be a bit too good as an assassination piece, as it has Leap and 3 initials to side-step and beat-back off of, but could be worth exploring. It's hard to say bad things about a Parry/Side-Step... perhaps go down to 3pts like the parry-side-stepping protectorate monks? It would be very cool. Kung-Fu goat theme seems to be the general idea but so far no goat has won the Under-18 All-Valley Karate Tournament... Moss on, Moss off...
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Post by streetpizza on Jun 21, 2018 15:11:14 GMT
jisidro you keep saying Rotterhorn but I think you mean Riphorn. Especially given that the Rotter is an even less seen light warbeast.
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Post by jisidro on Jun 21, 2018 15:17:39 GMT
jisidro you keep saying Rotterhorn but I think you mean Riphorn. Especially given that the Rotter is an even less seen light warbeast. OOps, I always mess up those two... I'll edit above.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Jun 21, 2018 15:19:27 GMT
jisidro you keep saying Rotterhorn but I think you mean Riphorn. Especially given that the Rotter is an even less seen light warbeast. They need to give the Rotterhorn Griffon it's old animus back, so much tricksy jank to be had, so Circle!
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Jun 21, 2018 15:35:54 GMT
jisidro 1 - 6 vs 12 on 2d6 is more than 50%. It's something around 70% or more. I don't remember. internet calc says 72.22% but I don't trust that 2 - You're not the only faction with 1 non-caster damage buff. So that doesn't mean you need more/less/better. Also, Risk vs. Reward is a good thing. Get +4 stat combo and frenzy or miss/fail to kill. 3 - Everything dies. We build lists to specifically kill jacks in a single turn. Why should beast be expected to survive the same stuff? The Primal argument has existed forever and will continue as will the choir/junior/rush/etc argument. Also, all my mat 6 beasts would like to argue that it's not a requirement to be mat 7 to beat stuff up well.
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