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Post by booggy on Dec 12, 2017 14:26:59 GMT
Hello there,
I thought about Gravediggers, which is a nice TF, but with weaknesses to apply significant damages against ARM spam.... which is a common thing nowadays.
I was looking after a caster with ranged support, because i like the combo Express Team + Trenchers Longgunners. And new Triumph is pretty cool.
I was looking for a caster with melee jack support as well, especially threat extender.
Finally, I was looking for some melee damage bonus of any origin, to have more play against high ARM.
And I built this :
Cygnar Army - 75 / 75 points
[Theme] Gravediggers
(Maddox 1) Major Beth Maddox [+30]
- Centurion [17]
- Triumph [18]
Captain Maxwell Finn [0(6)]
Commander Anson Hitch [4]
Gorman di Wulfe, Rogue Alchemist [4]
Trench Buster [0(5)]
Lady Aiyana & Master Holt [8]
- Captain Jonas Murdoch [4]
Trencher Commandos (max) [15]
- Trencher Commando Officer [4]
- Trencher Commando Scattergunner (2) [4]
Trencher Express Team [5]
Trencher Long Gunners (max) [18]
- Trencher Long Gunner Officer [4]
The main idea is to have a decent gunsline with strong melee presence/combo... strong enough to discourage opponents to trivially jam my gunners. Maddox can be a weird choice at first sight, because her spells are not all useful here.. a lot of models here have innate Pathfinder, Tough and low ARM.
But Snipe is great to cycle between Trenchers Long Gunners, Triumph and even Commandos. Agression is solid on a Centurion. Onslaught could be occasionnally strong, to deliver the Centurion. Dauntless Resolve can be cast on Maddox herself or on a valuable solo, like Finn.
More important, his feat is what drove me to her, because it brings what Gravediggers needs IMO. It can be combined to Kiss of Lylyth and Gorman' Rust Bomb to a +7 melee damage (Centurion with P+F 25, yes please !). I don't think it will ever happen, but Commandos with mini-feat can theorically reach POW 18 on their knife ^^
Long gunners become MAT 6 (7 with Finn) POW 12 with Beat Back, which is very decent for a ranged unit.
Out of feat turn, the gunsline can be brutal. Commandos + mini-feat + Kiss + Snipe can throw their grenade at 10", RAT 8-9 POW 16. Express team + Long Gunners can easily cripple System/Aspect.
The list seems quite versatile... Gorman with his Blind grenade can be very useful against Battle Engine too, or troups brick (champions troll, Cetrati, etc...) which are seen more and more these days.
Am i the only one to think about Maddox in GraveDigger ?
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Dec 12, 2017 14:38:06 GMT
I was theory crafting Maddox Gravedigger lists yesterday, however I went for a pair of Stormclads, as Maddox is a Stormknight they can accumulator off her, which feels like cheating in a non-Storm Division theme. I also went for Ragman and Gibbs as they are too good to pass up.
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Post by snarlyyow on Dec 12, 2017 17:58:48 GMT
I was theory crafting Maddox Gravedigger lists yesterday, however I went for a pair of Stormclads, as Maddox is a Stormknight they can accumulator off her, which feels like cheating in a non-Storm Division theme. I also went for Ragman and Gibbs as they are too good to pass up. Getting a 7 point damage swing seems pretty good. POW18 trenchers just look really enticing, especially if you can pop Snipe on them. The only real problem is Maddox can't run Grenadiers super well. Maddox also doesn't enjoy swapping spells so where you put Snipe should prolly stay there. Still, I never ran her with a Squire or Jr so the theme feels pretty solid for her. If there's anything to lose it's prolly the Trench Buster, she likely doesn't need the hitting power. |
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Dec 12, 2017 19:15:47 GMT
I was theory crafting Maddox Gravedigger lists yesterday, however I went for a pair of Stormclads, as Maddox is a Stormknight they can accumulator off her, which feels like cheating in a non-Storm Division theme. I also went for Ragman and Gibbs as they are too good to pass up. Getting a 7 point damage swing seems pretty good. POW18 trenchers just look really enticing, especially if you can pop Snipe on them. The only real problem is Maddox can't run Grenadiers super well. Maddox also doesn't enjoy swapping spells so where you put Snipe should prolly stay there. Still, I never ran her with a Squire or Jr so the theme feels pretty solid for her. If there's anything to lose it's prolly the Trench Buster, she likely doesn't need the hitting power. I was thinking about a Trencher Lieutenant with a Grenadier, Snipe and Fire Group makes it range 16 which could be fun |
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Post by sludgeogre on Dec 12, 2017 20:13:09 GMT
I've thought about this a lot, but I'm not really a fan of taking trenchers just for the feat turn. You can make the rest of the mechanics you mentioned happen with any caster that has snipe. Dauntless resolve is nearly pointless as who cares if they're armor 13 or 16, they're still likely to die if they get hit anyway, even on most of the solos. I could see Finn getting a little use out of it, or a Buster, but that's about it.
The real thing that puts the nail in her coffin, for me, is that Siege2 has access to Desperate Pace and Fury. Rotating Fury between two units is like having her feat every turn since it's pretty unlikely you'd use Beat Back unless you're going into Infantry. Also, if your really want that, Swift Hunter is nearly as good when going against infantry and makes the Commandos run all over the table anyway. The fact that Maddox has no threat extension for infantry spam that can only threaten 11.5 (commandos) or 12 inches (infantry) makes it really hard to get anything done against forces that are much faster than you, as they'll get the drop on your trenchers and pick them apart quickly. I've tried similar things into Ret and if they go first, they out-threaten everything and are guaranteed to alpha the crap out of you once they get there. It's still a game, but you're on your back foot from the get go, trying to claw out of their attrition.
As for running Stormclads with her in the theme, it's really not worth it since they have to be within 3 inches of the caster. The Stormclads are never going to get much work done in that position besides firing off their gun at whatever is maybe close enough, and they'll get blocked in by a clump of trenchers most of the time. Ironclad is just as good of a melee bodyguard for the force, if only he had 2" melee, but I'm not paying 6 more points for that.
I think there is a possibility of doing something cool with her, I just think the overall toolboxes of her competition work a whole lot better with the theme.
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Post by booggy on Dec 12, 2017 20:15:55 GMT
What is your Maddox list, CygnarGuy ?
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Dec 12, 2017 20:43:43 GMT
The list I ended up with was
Maddox
- Stormclad
- Reliant
Lieutenant
- Grenadier
Ragman
Gibbs
Finn (free)
Hitch
Pupper
Buster (free)
Buster
Master gunner
Express Team
Express Team
Max Trencher Infantry
- officer and sniper (free)
- 3 x Grenadiers
Combat Engineers
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Post by booggy on Dec 13, 2017 8:59:37 GMT
Fun fact : there is only 5 models that are in both lists... it seems Maddox in Gravediggers can have very different builds !
I imagine it depends a lot of what is the purpose of the list, and what is the other list of the pairing.
My Maddox list is there to try to have a game against Cryx and Grymkin.
My other list is a more classic Stryker2 in StormDivision list.
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Post by droopingpuppy on Dec 13, 2017 12:06:04 GMT
Hello there, I thought about Gravediggers, which is a nice TF, but with weaknesses to apply significant damages against ARM spam.... which is a common thing nowadays. I was looking after a caster with ranged support, because i like the combo Express Team + Trenchers Longgunners. And new Triumph is pretty cool. I was looking for a caster with melee jack support as well, especially threat extender. Finally, I was looking for some melee damage bonus of any origin, to have more play against high ARM. And I built this : Cygnar Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Gravediggers (Maddox 1) Major Beth Maddox [+30] - Centurion [17] - Triumph [18] Captain Maxwell Finn [0(6)] Commander Anson Hitch [4] Gorman di Wulfe, Rogue Alchemist [4] Trench Buster [0(5)] Lady Aiyana & Master Holt [8] - Captain Jonas Murdoch [4] Trencher Commandos (max) [15] - Trencher Commando Officer [4] - Trencher Commando Scattergunner (2) [4] Trencher Express Team [5] Trencher Long Gunners (max) [18] - Trencher Long Gunner Officer [4] The main idea is to have a decent gunsline with strong melee presence/combo... strong enough to discourage opponents to trivially jam my gunners. Maddox can be a weird choice at first sight, because her spells are not all useful here.. a lot of models here have innate Pathfinder, Tough and low ARM. But Snipe is great to cycle between Trenchers Long Gunners, Triumph and even Commandos. Agression is solid on a Centurion. Onslaught could be occasionnally strong, to deliver the Centurion. Dauntless Resolve can be cast on Maddox herself or on a valuable solo, like Finn. More important, his feat is what drove me to her, because it brings what Gravediggers needs IMO. It can be combined to Kiss of Lylyth and Gorman' Rust Bomb to a +7 melee damage (Centurion with P+F 25, yes please !). I don't think it will ever happen, but Commandos with mini-feat can theorically reach POW 18 on their knife ^^ Long gunners become MAT 6 (7 with Finn) POW 12 with Beat Back, which is very decent for a ranged unit. Out of feat turn, the gunsline can be brutal. Commandos + mini-feat + Kiss + Snipe can throw their grenade at 10", RAT 8-9 POW 16. Express team + Long Gunners can easily cripple System/Aspect. The list seems quite versatile... Gorman with his Blind grenade can be very useful against Battle Engine too, or troups brick (champions troll, Cetrati, etc...) which are seen more and more these days. Am i the only one to think about Maddox in GraveDigger ? While Triumph is good now, but it have really no value outside of Brisbane's battlegroup. Unless you play Brisbane, you better drop Triumph and forget about it. A Defender, a pair of Hunters, or even a Hunter and 8 spare points are almost always better than Triumph if you don't pick Brisbane, because what makes Triumph better than these options is its Bond ability with Brisbane that makes two boosted ranged attacks per one round. If you want armor cracking stuff in melee with Maddox's feat, then you better looking for Trencher Infantry because of their P+S 11 on charge attack and RNG 1. RNG 0.5 does nothing against armor even with buffed P+S unless it have really insane value. The gap between RNG 0.5 and RNG 1 is huge, for in the most times only two to three troopers are able to make the charge attack against a model in a turn, while up to five(or even six!) troopers are able to make the charge attack against a model in a turn, that makes about doubled damage output in the real games(in theory they may circle the enemy, but in the reality you will not have enough distance and/or field to do so). So, unless the unit with RNG 0.5 melee weapon can make about double of damage than the unit with RNG 1 melee weapon, they are never be a good choice. conflictchamber.com/#c1201b_-0FfN9BiPiPamifieieal8Mayig9U9V9WikilCygnar Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Gravediggers (Maddox 1) Major Beth Maddox [+30] - Centurion [17] - Hunter [10] - Hunter [10] Captain Maxwell Finn [0(6)] Patrol Dog [2] Trench Buster [0(5)] Trench Buster [0(5)] Trencher Master Gunner [4] Lady Aiyana & Master Holt [8] - Captain Jonas Murdoch [4] Trencher Express Team [5] Trencher Infantry (max) [16] - Trencher Infantry Officer & Sniper [5] - Trencher Infantry Rifle Grenadier (1) [2] Trencher Long Gunners (max) [18] - Trencher Long Gunner Officer [4] Well, what about this by making small tweaks? Master Gunner is there for make one more shot for the Express Team, or make an accurate spray attack. Busters would Shield Guard Aiyana or another important models, and may repel the charge against your Trencher Infantry. Also you can give Snipe to either Trencher Infantry or Trencher Long Gunners too. |
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Post by booggy on Dec 13, 2017 16:23:43 GMT
I like a lot what you put together, droopingpuppy ! Thanks for that input. I don't own Trenchers Infantry for now, thus I don't theorycraft with them... but I think your list is very effective. About Triumph, I like his True Sight/Dual Attack/Rapid fire package. I have to make more tests, but his ability to remove easily an annoying stealth/incorporel model off the table during Maintenance Phase seems valuable to me. It lets Ayanna do her Kiss instead of spend activation turning a gun into a magical thing. I don't take Triumph for his damage output because it's not very good at it, cost wise (except with Siege, as you said), but for his special abilities... this jack can trample/slam 8", then fire a POW 15 shot at 20" full boosted.. enough to instant kill a journeyman warcaster which believed safe, or remove an UA before it has mini-feated. I can shot Tartarus or Darragh very early. I can treathen a stealth caster during all the game. And the opponent can not easily shutdown Triumph, with Dual Attack and ARM 20. I really like this model  |
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Dec 13, 2017 16:52:08 GMT
Been thinking about Caine 1 in Gravediggers, Blur on the Infantry (def 20 against range!), Snipe on the Longgunners, Deadeye the Express Teams for 4 dice crit knockdowns. Maybe take Lynus & Edrea to give Applied Knowledge to the Trencher Infantry CRA, Or Aiyana and Holt.
Caine would be just a buff bot, but Trencher stuff is pretty good on its own so Caine can stay nice and safe while his army does the work.
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Post by booggy on Dec 13, 2017 17:12:51 GMT
Caine1 has been my first test with Gravediggers ^^
But I found that it was hard to deal with heavy jammers, as my BG with Caine1 was essentially composed with Hunters, Ace and Triumph... once my gunner were stucked, I was done.
Then I tried with Stryker1 and a Stormwall. It was nice, but his feat was a little useless, except for colosse... i was still lacking melee punch.
I'm now in the Maddox boat... and I like it, because I can do something while in melee.
Played a game against a Haley3 gravediggers, and I successfully shot Baby Haley twice right off the board with Triumph. Trenchers Longgunners have destroyed a Centurion and a Grendier. I lost to scenario, because I fumbled at designing my prey with commandos (choose Thorn, missed-Dodge and it was over for commandos) and have been destroyed by my opponent commandos ^^. But It was a nice, pleasant game.
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xadmar
Junior Strategist
Posts: 173 
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Post by xadmar on Dec 13, 2017 19:56:01 GMT
No grenadiers for your warjacks? With LAMH or Ragman they can really do some work.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Dec 14, 2017 10:46:05 GMT
Thinking of something like this for Caine 1
Caine 1
- Ace
- Stormclad
Eilish
Finn (Free)
Buster (Free)
Hitch
Master Gunner
Pupper
Aiyana & Holt
- Murdoch
Express Team
Express Team
Max Infantry
- CA (Free)
Max Longgunners
- CA
I love Ace too much to give up just yet, and a Stormclad uses up Caines WJ points exactly. Eilish is to remove any upkeeps, but mainly to puppet master either Aiyanas harm, or a CRA or a clutch Thunderstrike from Caine. Like I said previously, Blur on the Infantry, Snipe on the longgunners, the basic idea is to scalpel out spirits and cortexes and apply Grievous wounds.
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