An answer to Kreoss3 and Vengers?

I would look at Kromac1. His stalkers out-threat the vengers and should be able to berserk through them. Rift can also be used to reduce his threat. It might be better to play him in devourer's host, so you can jam with tharn.

I run Kreoss3 double Vengers specifically as an answer to Circle, so I can provide some insight into what I like seeing and what I hate seeing.

I think Devourer's Host is a bad drop. I would personally love to see it. I take a squad of Idrians in my list to clear screens and Tharn Ravagers are perfect Prey targets. Count on them being reduced. And, if you press forward to bait Venger charges, count on me Igniting the Idrians to charge and wipe them out. The Ravagers just don't have the staying power needed to survive Idrian CRAs. Perhaps if Bloodtrackers are also used you could have some counter play. But that's why I play with a Redeemer (and because Force Hammer assassinations are awesome).

macdaddy : expect the Kreoss3 player to have Rhupert. He will have Pathfinder when it is needed. Also, Vengers threat 13" naturally.

Fudly : Trying to outthreat Vengers without guns is really hard. Especially when your opponent plays Vengers in a staggered V formation or a W so that only one is in threat range. And good luck getting more than two in a Berserk chain: with CMD 9, there is no reason to leave Vengers that close to each other when only two Ignited and Battle Driven Vengers can flip a table on a Warpwolf.

With your collection, you are going to have a tough time against the Kreoss3 double Venger boat. I highly suggest you invest in some Wolds if this matchup will be a bugbear for you. After playing against Krueger2 twice in Bones, I believe that to be a solidly good matchup. Here are the reasons:

-Telekinesis is an amazing, versatile spell. You can flip Vengers backwards so that they can't charge. You can drag critical pieces forward to pound on. You can do general janky stuff to give Kreoss3 a headache. And you can set up assassination runs.

-Rebuke shuts Vengers down. Yes, Kreoss3 has a Feat that clears upkeeps. Gravus has Dispel, and so does Fire of Salvation. However, you are now either forcing me to Feat or beat my own dudes in the back of the head with legitimate melee weapons - and I lose their activations to that, too. That seems like a pretty good deal for one little upkeep. Just don't forget that Kreoss3 can clear it and use it as a bully stick to force reactions.

-Windstorm prevents Kreoss3's Force Hammer assassination run, unless the Redeemer can walk 15-16" away from Krueger2 and still be in LOS (not easy). Plus, it also hampers other guns the army sometimes takes.

-Wolds take more than two Vengers to kill. After the CID, they are incredible. Bones used to be a good matchup for me. It's not any more.

-Kreoss3 routinely has 2-3 upkeeps in play at once. Take a Woldwyrd. Take two. Shoot any Venger that dares to have an upkeep on them apart. Each Woldwyrd should account for 2-3 Vengers per turn. Two can reduce a squad dramatically in just one turn. And they are an assassination threat if Kreoss3 tries to put Arcane Ward up in an effort to prevent the TK assassination.

In summary, your collection challenges you right now. Those themes have a tough time with a brutally hard-hitting melee force that out threats them. If I could make only one recommendation, it would be to run Krueger2 with a few Woldwyrds. That's a good start to Venger melting fun.

Woldwyrds are amazing, doubly so into Menoth. They're magical guns, so they ignore choir, and Menoth LOOOOOVES their defensive upkeeps.

Blackclads or Lanyssa can help a lot with threat ranges. Even if you never use them, the threat of hunters mark + warpath is intimidating. 15" Threat on a stalker is pretty obscene.

For the Vengers...try to bait them out or jam them. If they've got an upkeep on them, woldwyrds will eat three of them handily (especially if they're also blessed by the pureblood). If they clump up to kill a hard target, you can put a warpwolf on them and watch them melt. Don't trigger battledriven unless you're killing 3+ of them, because it's just not worth it.

Jamming Vengers can be surprisingly effective. If they can't charge, they lose out on:

- impact attacks
- lances
- boosted attack rolls

It's a pretty big deal. Last game I played, the opponent deployed his Vengers on a flank, and over the course of two turns I just...jammed them with a unit of bloodweavers. Make sure they're inconvenient to reach with another unit, and it can be unreasonably inconvenient for them to deal with, particularly if the vengers are playing backfield to avoid your other threat ranges.