Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 30, 2017 22:52:52 GMT
Sometimes I think about Azrael, and wonder why he wasn't lylyth's character beast. It feels like they were designing him for lylyth, and then switched him to kryssa because of mk 3. Maybe it's just because every time i think about trying to build a lylyth list, i want to take azrael, and use the oracles theme, but that sadly does not work. i feel like it would really help lylyth 2. azrael is so great with any of the lylyths really. i felt like oracles was really going to help lyl 2 reach the critical mass she needed to be good. but leaving out azrael is tough.
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Whiskie
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Post by Whiskie on Mar 31, 2017 1:08:23 GMT
Honestly it's probably a good thing Azrael isn't Lylyth's beast because if he was I don't think we'd see a Lylyth list without him ever again especially now that we're in an era of theme forces. Azrael being bonded to Kryssa forces meaningful decisions to be made about playing in or out of theme with a wide variety of Warlocks since it's a rare 'lock that doesn't want to take a beast that can throw out 2x boosted POW17 ranged attacks a turn.
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Post by zerohour on Mar 31, 2017 3:30:56 GMT
I've been testing a Lylyth 2 build with typhon and azrael in it, it already feels really strong. I'm pretty sure with oracles she would be broken completely. Azrael and typhon under pincushion statistically, and it doesn't even have to be feat turn (assuming defense isn't an issue). I don't think it really needs anything other then a good pair, which it has with oracles Fyanna
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2017 4:44:44 GMT
yeah, i have a list with both of them in there. the game i had to test it my opponent basically decided to give me a matchup i would never drop her into. its expensive though, doesn't leave room for much else. and she needs so much fury management because when aren't you going first with her? i can't argue with you guys balance wise. just wishful thinking. oracles is still plenty good for lylyth without him.
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princeraven
Junior Strategist
Shredder spam is best spam
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Post by princeraven on Mar 31, 2017 7:31:18 GMT
Attaching strong character jacks/beasts to mediocre casters at least gives people a reason to not play all theme forces all the time.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Mar 31, 2017 14:56:11 GMT
Just because he has a good gun does not mean he should belong to Lylyth. Truthfully outside of that one aspect Lylyth doesn't benefit from anything that went into Azrael's design. I don't see him as a "pity" bond to Kryssa either. She holds her own without him. Azrael is a great character that any caster can benefit from without the bond.
The real downfall is the massive push to theme forces and he nor other characters are included in them. But our characters are worth playing out of theme for... well maybe not Zuriel.
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Post by copperflame on Mar 31, 2017 15:41:39 GMT
On the reverse perspective - I don't think Azrael does much for Kryssa (other than the awesome Pow17x2 at range that he would for anyone else). Now her ability to put reposition on him is great and I can't wait to test that out.
But looking at the other character beasts and their bonds, I don't think the design was ever 'warlock gets a perfect beast'.
ouch... poor Zuriel. Man when he first came out, I loved him so much. I bought him, painted him and was slinging him with joy. Now... he just sits there on the shelf. I know there are some lists that he works with but I don't find I like him compared to my other choices.
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Whiskie
Junior Strategist
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Post by Whiskie on Mar 31, 2017 16:04:33 GMT
ouch... poor Zuriel. Man when he first came out, I loved him so much. I bought him, painted him and was slinging him with joy. Now... he just sits there on the shelf. I know there are some lists that he works with but I don't find I like him compared to my other choices. I miss old Zuriel. Granted he'd be a lot less relevant in today's meta since it's no longer common to face 30+ warrior models so Predator's Instinct would be a lot less valuable than it was in MK2. But having a DEF12/ARM19 chassis was really nice, as were his RoF2 sprays. I used to run a Vayl1 list that took both Typhon and Zuriel to play against Runes of War which was one of our worst match ups. Typhon spraying 3 times, Zuriel spraying twice and the Seraph firing its D3+1 shots at a heavy inside Vayl's Incite bubble was super devastating. Trolls loved relying on their free walls to keep their heavies alive but Incite buffed sprays didn't care a bit. And once you shot a Mauler or Earthborn off the board you could back everything (including Vayl herself!) up to safety. Sigh. |
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newsun
Junior Strategist
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Post by newsun on Mar 31, 2017 17:26:15 GMT
His shots are pow 20 on feat turn because thrown, so there is that.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Mar 31, 2017 17:33:33 GMT
On the reverse perspective - I don't think Azrael does much for Kryssa (other than the awesome Pow17x2 at range that he would for anyone else). Zuriel doesn't make Saeryn 1 a better caster. Proteus doesn't make Abby better at supporting beasts like before (hearding). Or more recently Loki doesn't do anything to help Tanith. It's not about the tool making the Caster better. It's how well the character beast is made better by their respective Caster. Reposition on him is amazing. Having a second source of Cloak of ash is very beneficial for Azrael himself as well as anything within 2" vs living. The +3 strength with no strings attached (Fury doesn't work, don't have to hit with parasite, etc...) is great. Crit smite adds to Kryssa's ability to control an engagement which is absolutely key considering her feat and mobility focus. The only short coming is the animus and as you said no one is allowed a "perfect" beast. I don't see Azrael fitting any other caster better. Not even Kallus; he doesn't remotely have the tools to make Azrael better. Overrun is cute but can be triggered just as well by any other ranged beast. Battle lust doesn't apply to beasts. His feat is useless to Azrael since he doesn't want to charge things. Azrael is way to expensive an option to enable Kallus' feat... It's just that he's a good beast that people want to take. That doesn't mean Typhon should be bonded to Vayl or Lylyth since they like to take him too. |
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Post by fossilfinder on Mar 31, 2017 18:58:19 GMT
When Azrael was first revealed I thought he was going to be Lylyth's beast but As it turned out I'm rather glad he isn't, since the above post is correct and aside from having a strong gun he doesn't have a lot of synergy with any of the Lylyths in particular. He does make Kryssa a more compelling choice in themes (I've had success with her in Oracles of Annihilation, for instance) and Tactical Supremacy, POW 20 shooting on the feat and effective free Cloak of Ash for Azrael is great. In return he offers Kryssa a situationally useful animus and an extremely solid and mobile heavy gun platform that can bully the board and enemy casters, which allows Kryssa to better dictate where the lines clash. Legion's character beasts besides Zuriel are all by-and-large superior to non-character choices with most casters, and Azrael doesn't break that trend. Lylyth may never get a character, but if she does it'll probably be some sort of advanced bolt thrower.
On the topic of Zuriel I understand why Predator's Instinct went away (it makes assassination runs with Legion casters much more likely than they already are in most cases) but I would contend that having an arc node that accurately scoops out cortices and spirits isn't that bad for Saeryn, since she has her Grievous Wound knives. Granted I would probably spend his points on an extra Carnivean but of the three bond options Zuriel seems the weakest with Rhyas.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2017 18:01:50 GMT
I agree that tac supremacy is great for Azrael, and the feat turn is good. I don't have a problem with him being kryssa's beast, since he is great with other casters regardless. And kryssa needed something truly worthy of tac supremacy.
But I feel like Azrael works great with any of the lylyths.
Lylyth1- parasite equals PS 20s every turn, feat turn for crit smite, and potentially pursuit to protect him.
Lylyth 2- feat turn for 3 PS 17s, mirage improves threat range, pincushion for a ranged beast.
Lylyth3- escort improves threat range, PS17s is great for the assassination.
Seems to me our best ranged beast has clear synergy with our ranged caster. He is just so great that he can find a place with multiple casters.
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Whiskie
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Post by Whiskie on Apr 1, 2017 18:32:08 GMT
On the topic of Zuriel I understand why Predator's Instinct went away (it makes assassination runs with Legion casters much more likely than they already are in most cases) but I would contend that having an arc node that accurately scoops out cortices and spirits isn't that bad for Saeryn, since she has her Grievous Wound knives. Granted I would probably spend his points on an extra Carnivean but of the three bond options Zuriel seems the weakest with Rhyas. Predator's Instinct didn't work on Warcasters or Warlocks for the exact reason you're describing.  |
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Post by fossilfinder on Apr 1, 2017 19:58:30 GMT
On the topic of Zuriel I understand why Predator's Instinct went away (it makes assassination runs with Legion casters much more likely than they already are in most cases) but I would contend that having an arc node that accurately scoops out cortices and spirits isn't that bad for Saeryn, since she has her Grievous Wound knives. Granted I would probably spend his points on an extra Carnivean but of the three bond options Zuriel seems the weakest with Rhyas. Predator's Instinct didn't work on Warcasters or Warlocks for the exact reason you're describing. I stand corrected then. No reason to remove it at that point, since Zuriel was designed with infantry removal in mind (and it helped justify the RAT 5). Oh well. They could at least have the decency to give him Gunfighter. |
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rivers
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Post by rivers on Apr 3, 2017 11:21:38 GMT
I don't see Azrael fitting any other caster better. Not even Kallus; he doesn't remotely have the tools to make Azrael better. Overrun is cute but can be triggered just as well by any other ranged beast. Battle lust doesn't apply to beasts. His feat is useless to Azrael since he doesn't want to charge things. Azrael is way to expensive an option to enable Kallus' feat... It's just that he's a good beast that people want to take. That doesn't mean Typhon should be bonded to Vayl or Lylyth since they like to take him too. I don't think that Azrael should have been Kallus2's beast nor do I think he's so good with him that he is the "de facto" beast for him, but I think you're missing some of the point. If you think Reposition 3" is great on him with Kryssa, Overrun is basically Reposition 6". He can be super safe as a (very high POW) hit and run gun platform thanks to it. Yes, you have to kill something, but it doesn't necessarily have to be him and he's not exactly bad at killing stuff himself. Before any counter arguments, yes, Kryssa makes him POW20, but only for one turn. She struggles just as much as Kallus after that, and he at least has Battle Lust for infantry. Speaking of, Battle Lust is a great spell but I feel Overrun is Kallus2's real strength (plus your argument could be used for not taking basically any beast with Kallus). That said, if you're focusing on Battle Lust, anything on a large base is probably "too expensive" to enable his feat, and you should probably just take a swarm of shredders or raeks or something silly. Full disclosure, I think he's great with both. I think Azrael is pretty great with others too. He definitely fits Kryssa thematically and they've built him well to reflect that. I also think he could probably stand to be 20 points or have a lower P+S claw attack to help his melee game a little (considering cost) but even so he's in a very good place overall. |
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