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Post by Havock on Nov 11, 2017 6:14:34 GMT
I like how immunities are handled in CoI, 1 less dice on damage roll. That and being immune to the status effects I presume?
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Post by Cryptix on Nov 11, 2017 18:46:02 GMT
Armory gives magic weapons (or was it stockpile? one of the sr objectives) so everyone does have free equal access
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Post by davycannonhound on Nov 11, 2017 19:20:52 GMT
From what I've seen, the amount of models that can give out magical damage is absurd. Sure, not ALL factions have easy access, but a lot do. Honestly four points for an attachment sounds great. Again, I will re-iterate the fact that it is possible to give non-magical damage weapons magical damage. It is not possible, however, to take away a weapon's damage type (or give it one). As it stands, incorporeal models are much easier to counter than models with immunities. Actually, that attachment is to the eight-point merc unit (A&H), so it's twelve points total if you want to make them friendly faction and get the rest of the benefits on their card. Anyways, the notion that incorporeal models are much easier to counter than models with immunities is laughable. ALL factions have access to an abundance of non-typed attacks. In fact, almost every single model in the game has a non-typed attack, be it a gun, a melee attack, or a magic missile type spell. Almost every single model in the game can kill an Assault Kommando. Probably something like 90% of the models in the game can't kill a Gremlin Swarm. Obviously most melee attacks don't have types, but a lot of guns do. Thats where the problem comes from. Also, considering the armory is available, I don't see how incorporeal is a problem. Again, comparing incorporeal to immunity, its much easier to handle incorporeal simply for the the fact that things that give out magic damage are rather abundant. There is nothing that takes away damage types, or immunities.
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Post by grabsnikk on Nov 11, 2017 19:38:44 GMT
I like how immunities are handled in CoI, 1 less dice on damage roll. This is exactly the change I would want to see. The only problem with making this change in WMH is that it would be completely pointless. Currently if a model has typed damage then it won't attack a model with that immunity because nothing happens at all. If you change it to the 1 less damage die then guess what? People still won't shoot it because 1d6 for damage is terrible and in a lot of cases may not even break armour.
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Post by mcdermott on Nov 11, 2017 19:58:54 GMT
Actually, that attachment is to the eight-point merc unit (A&H), so it's twelve points total if you want to make them friendly faction and get the rest of the benefits on their card. Anyways, the notion that incorporeal models are much easier to counter than models with immunities is laughable. ALL factions have access to an abundance of non-typed attacks. In fact, almost every single model in the game has a non-typed attack, be it a gun, a melee attack, or a magic missile type spell. Almost every single model in the game can kill an Assault Kommando. Probably something like 90% of the models in the game can't kill a Gremlin Swarm. Obviously most melee attacks don't have types, but a lot of guns do. Thats where the problem comes from. Also, considering the armory is available, I don't see how incorporeal is a problem. Again, comparing incorporeal to immunity, its much easier to handle incorporeal simply for the the fact that things that give out magic damage are rather abundant. There is nothing that takes away damage types, or immunities. Really? Shall we make a list? Cause i think you'll find "things that give out magic damage" tend to be either limited to low attack volume things (warjacks) or on specific spellcasters not often considered particularly great in other areas of the game, and there really aren't as many as you'd think. Incorporeal is definitely one of the things that theme based play has rendered somewhat unbalanced as many of those options find themselves boxed out of themes. More models that can hand it out, and more units with it innately are probably going to be necessary with the scenario power incorporeal solos have in steamroller.
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Post by W0lfBane on Nov 11, 2017 20:24:29 GMT
Obviously most melee attacks don't have types, but a lot of guns do. Thats where the problem comes from. Also, considering the armory is available, I don't see how incorporeal is a problem. Again, comparing incorporeal to immunity, its much easier to handle incorporeal simply for the the fact that things that give out magic damage are rather abundant. There is nothing that takes away damage types, or immunities. Really? Shall we make a list? Cause i think you'll find "things that give out magic damage" tend to be either limited to low attack volume things (warjacks) or on specific spellcasters not often considered particularly great in other areas of the game, and there really aren't as many as you'd think. Incorporeal is definitely one of the things that theme based play has rendered somewhat unbalanced as many of those options find themselves boxed out of themes. More models that can hand it out, and more units with it innately are probably going to be necessary with the scenario power incorporeal solos have in steamroller. Ayiana and holt. Don't even need a ranking officer to make use that ability.
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Post by mcdermott on Nov 11, 2017 20:33:24 GMT
So one character unit?
Doesn't seem "abundant"
Seems like you have one merc option and best hope that your opponent doesn't have incorp in 2 lists one of which is a terrible matchup for the list you put A+H in.
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Post by davycannonhound on Nov 11, 2017 21:11:19 GMT
This is exactly the change I would want to see. The only problem with making this change in WMH is that it would be completely pointless. Currently if a model has typed damage then it won't attack a model with that immunity because nothing happens at all. If you change it to the 1 less damage die then guess what? People still won't shoot it because 1d6 for damage is terrible and in a lot of cases may not even break armour. Is boosting not an option? Sure, you're paying fury/focus to roll 2 dice, but if you REALLY need that thing dead then it should be worth it.
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Post by galrohir on Nov 11, 2017 21:18:08 GMT
So one character unit? Doesn't seem "abundant" Seems like you have one merc option and best hope that your opponent doesn't have incorp in 2 lists one of which is a terrible matchup for the list you put A+H in. Didn't they do away witht he FA: C restrictions a while ago? So you can put A+H on every list in Steamroller, if you so desire.
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Post by davycannonhound on Nov 11, 2017 21:18:09 GMT
Obviously most melee attacks don't have types, but a lot of guns do. Thats where the problem comes from. Also, considering the armory is available, I don't see how incorporeal is a problem. Again, comparing incorporeal to immunity, its much easier to handle incorporeal simply for the the fact that things that give out magic damage are rather abundant. There is nothing that takes away damage types, or immunities. Really? Shall we make a list? Cause i think you'll find "things that give out magic damage" tend to be either limited to low attack volume things (warjacks) or on specific spellcasters not often considered particularly great in other areas of the game, and there really aren't as many as you'd think. Incorporeal is definitely one of the things that theme based play has rendered somewhat unbalanced as many of those options find themselves boxed out of themes. More models that can hand it out, and more units with it innately are probably going to be necessary with the scenario power incorporeal solos have in steamroller. Wraithbane. Obviously this is limited to just hordes, but still between the warbeast and a warlock, thats two models that can have magic damage on ALL their weapons. As I mentioned earlier, armory is available which has the exact same effect as wraithbane minus the blessed part. I'm seeing plenty of models with actions that give out magic damage to stuff (namely warjacks) along with a couple of units that have it/can gain it through an action. Of course, the list of models that have it naturally is also rather large, even when you exclude warlocks and warcasters.
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demonic
Junior Strategist
Posts: 649
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Post by demonic on Nov 11, 2017 22:00:33 GMT
every casters' weapons have magical, regardless of faction. Every offensive spell that requires a magic ability score and does not have a specified damage type is automatically magical. Just to make things worse, no one would bring a list with an incorporeal focus to a real tournament anymore thanks to the existence of retribution, as well as cygnar's caine (mainly caine1). As more defenses are being bi-passed by magical shooting, the number of lists with a focal point on magical guns and sprays are also increasing, eliminating incorporeal units that are being played only because they are incorporeal from major tournaments.
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crimsyn
Junior Strategist
Posts: 389
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Post by crimsyn on Nov 11, 2017 23:56:19 GMT
Obviously most melee attacks don't have types, but a lot of guns do. Thats where the problem comes from. Also, considering the armory is available, I don't see how incorporeal is a problem. Again, comparing incorporeal to immunity, its much easier to handle incorporeal simply for the the fact that things that give out magic damage are rather abundant. There is nothing that takes away damage types, or immunities. So attack them in melee then, instead of trying to use a fire attack on a fire-immune model. Problem solved -- and you didn't even need a specific model like A&H or the Armory to do so. Also, not all scenarios have objectives, so the Armory isn't available all the time. Things that give out magic damage are not that abundant; it is a tiny minority of models which give out magical weapons, and those don't always fit into a list easily. Meanwhile, almost every single model in the game has an attack that can get around immunities. You don't need something to take away damage types or immunities, because almost every model in the game has a non-typed attack to start with.
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crimsyn
Junior Strategist
Posts: 389
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Post by crimsyn on Nov 12, 2017 0:02:29 GMT
every casters' weapons have magical, regardless of faction. Every offensive spell that requires a magic ability score and does not have a specified damage type is automatically magical. Those magical weapons also work on models with immunity:fire, cold, etc. In fact, almost every model in the game has a weapon that works against a model with immunities. Just to make things worse, no one would bring a list with an incorporeal focus to a real tournament anymore thanks to the existence of retribution, as well as cygnar's caine (mainly caine1). As more defenses are being bi-passed by magical shooting, the number of lists with a focal point on magical guns and sprays are also increasing, eliminating incorporeal units that are being played only because they are incorporeal from major tournaments. Are you serious? Ghost Fleet, Dark Host, any Grymkin list with Gremlin Swarms...
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demonic
Junior Strategist
Posts: 649
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Post by demonic on Nov 12, 2017 0:41:27 GMT
ghost fleet has 1 unit of incorporeal models and their battle engine, which are there for a specific reason. Dark Host uses ghostly, not incorporeal. Gremlin Swarms exist for a reason beyond being incorporeal; they can deal a nasty amount of damage to a 'jack regardless of armor and are cheap flag contesters.
As for what you said first, I agree. I was pointing out to the person who said that they had no access to magical in order to counter incorporeal that, well, yeah they do x.x;
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Post by davycannonhound on Nov 12, 2017 2:34:10 GMT
Obviously most melee attacks don't have types, but a lot of guns do. Thats where the problem comes from. Also, considering the armory is available, I don't see how incorporeal is a problem. Again, comparing incorporeal to immunity, its much easier to handle incorporeal simply for the the fact that things that give out magic damage are rather abundant. There is nothing that takes away damage types, or immunities. So attack them in melee then, instead of trying to use a fire attack on a fire-immune model. Problem solved -- and you didn't even need a specific model like A&H or the Armory to do so. Also, not all scenarios have objectives, so the Armory isn't available all the time. Things that give out magic damage are not that abundant; it is a tiny minority of models which give out magical weapons, and those don't always fit into a list easily. Meanwhile, almost every single model in the game has an attack that can get around immunities. You don't need something to take away damage types or immunities, because almost every model in the game has a non-typed attack to start with. Yes because you're guaranteed to get up the board with your melee stuff. True. But thats like, two of the scenarios that don't have the objectives? I still don't get what you mean by not abundant. They're fairly abundant in comparison to their preferred "prey", if you will, anyways. Except immunities seem to affect guns 90% of the time, which is a problem for certain gameplans. Again, you may not be able to even gut your stuff into melee properly, and often times a melee attack's higher pow is a waste on the models that have immunities anyways. You aren't convincing me otherwise. Just saying that right now.
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