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Post by elladan52 on Nov 9, 2017 13:02:54 GMT
I think dirtyharrypotter's point is that you can't play a "fluffy" WM list without getting destroyed, unless you have a "gentleman's agreement" with your opponent that you'll both play non-competitive lists. It's definitely the case that the default WM list you show up with, even to casual game day, is a highly competitive list. What does and doesn't count as "fluffy"? I would say both my tournament lists are fluffy, especially since they are both in themes. Edit: in fact, given the proliferation of theme forces in competitive play I'd say there are more "fluffy" lists than not.
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benkei
Junior Strategist
Posts: 244
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Post by benkei on Nov 9, 2017 14:03:22 GMT
Yeah, lol, because themes are SO FLUFFY
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Post by elladan52 on Nov 9, 2017 14:03:53 GMT
Yeah, lol, because themes are SO FLUFFY Why are they not? Define fluffy, please. Edit: To not argue dishonestly: I think they are fluffy because they represent either specific stories or specific divisions that would exist in the fluff of the setting. Edit2: To make this on topic, I think it's absolutely possible to build a competent and fluffy list in Warmachine, so if you want a combination of the two it could be a good choice.
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Post by dirtyharrypotter on Nov 9, 2017 14:16:01 GMT
What I meant was that both warhammer and warmachine have a great many lists that have good internal balance, synergies etc. and work great as a concept, but just aren't high enough up the powercurve to want to bring to a tournament environment where you can expect people to bring all the power they can. This is common sense, but in my opinion there lies a bit of a problem there because all that those list did wrong is to "not meet the statcheck".
In the 19 years that Iv been playing wargames this has allways been translated to 'playing competitively' and I never understood that. The competition concerns our skill as battlefield commanders and while in actual warfare those virtues are also determined by the forsight to bring the right troops and sabotage the enemy and gain as much of advantage before any clash even happens, we are playing a game and the competition should (imo) be all about testing skills with an even playingfield (ie balance). This means that in competitive play two opposing lists should be equally powerfull (or weak). Two lists on the lower end of the powercurve can make for a game that is just as challenging, fun and complicated to win as a game where two toptierlists are stacked against eachother. You see this all the time in sports.
So in a game that prides itself on balance and competitive play, you need a gentlemen's agreement where on the powercurve you play. Obviously this is hard to define so there is something to he said for agreeing by default to play as high up the powercurve as possible and try and make that as varied as possible.
This is definitely where warmachine does infinitely better than warhammer, where there were allways about 2 out of 15 factions with some point-and-click lists that defined the top of the powercurve all by themselves with room to spare. That is what I think plungingforward meant when he said you need a gentlemen's agreement to make warhammer playable, the top of tye powercurve makes honest competitive play the way I described it impossible unless everybody plays those lists. When you avoid that toptier though competitive play is just as real in warhammer as it is in warmachine.
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benkei
Junior Strategist
Posts: 244
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Post by benkei on Nov 9, 2017 14:35:37 GMT
Yeah, lol, because themes are SO FLUFFY Why are they not? Define fluffy, please. Edit: To not argue dishonestly: I think they are fluffy because they represent either specific stories or specific divisions that would exist in the fluff of the setting. Edit2: To make this on topic, I think it's absolutely possible to build a competent and fluffy list in Warmachine, so if you want a combination of the two it could be a good choice. Specific stories where you can take any caster you want and any mercenary too... yeah, right, fluffy as hell
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Post by elladan52 on Nov 9, 2017 14:36:50 GMT
Why are they not? Define fluffy, please. Edit: To not argue dishonestly: I think they are fluffy because they represent either specific stories or specific divisions that would exist in the fluff of the setting. Edit2: To make this on topic, I think it's absolutely possible to build a competent and fluffy list in Warmachine, so if you want a combination of the two it could be a good choice. Specific stories where you can take any caster you want and any mercenary too... yeah, right, fluffy as hell I can see you are not wanting to have a conversation here. That's fine.
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Post by HubertJFarnsworth on Nov 9, 2017 14:44:52 GMT
Why are they not? Define fluffy, please. Edit: To not argue dishonestly: I think they are fluffy because they represent either specific stories or specific divisions that would exist in the fluff of the setting. Edit2: To make this on topic, I think it's absolutely possible to build a competent and fluffy list in Warmachine, so if you want a combination of the two it could be a good choice. Specific stories where you can take any caster you want and any mercenary too... yeah, right, fluffy as hell It's pretty well-established that Warcasters and Warlocks are rare resources and tend to go where they're needed. Sure Irusk might prefer to work with the Winterguard but if Ayn says "go lead these Man O Wars" he's gonna do just that. Some theme lists, like Forges of War in Retribution, do limit caster choices because of fluff considerations, but it makes sense for the vast majority of them to be flexible. Considering the scale we play vs the scale that battles take place in the fiction it's also perfectly conceivable that the warcaster or warlock just showed up to a part of the battle where they were needed and is working with the troops on hand. Not everyone gets to travel around with their personal, hand-picked cadre of 75 points of soldiers and sometimes you need to take a powerful asset and move them to another part of the battle.
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Post by galrohir on Nov 9, 2017 15:10:07 GMT
Yeah, lol, because themes are SO FLUFFY Why are they not? Define fluffy, please. Edit: To not argue dishonestly: I think they are fluffy because they represent either specific stories or specific divisions that would exist in the fluff of the setting. Edit2: To make this on topic, I think it's absolutely possible to build a competent and fluffy list in Warmachine, so if you want a combination of the two it could be a good choice. If we take "fluffy" to mean "an army that represents a force as seen in Warmachine/Hordes lore" (as much as it can, really, considering those number in the thousands and we got way less models), then there's obviously themes that are fluffy and themes that aren't. Some examples: - For Storm Division to be representative, it would need to also allow: Trenchers, Long Gunners, Precursor Knights, Gun Mages and Rangers. That's all stuff the actual, in-universe Storm Division actually has. - I've never seen an in-universe example of either Jaws of the Wolf or Legions of Steel. As a matter of fact, Khador's "in-universe" Jaws of the Wolf army would be Irusk's 4th Assault Legion, and it looks absolutely nothing like the Jaws of the Wolf Theme. - The Talion Charter somehow now ecompasses, not only the actual Tallion, but somehow also Broadsides Bart and Fiona, despite the fact that there's no actual alliance of them (and in fact, there's murderous rivalry) with Shae. Also you can take Colbie Sterling (who's had about zero contact with these people). - Similarly, the Llaelese Resistance Theme allows you to take Protectorate Units, even though the Resistance is at best lukewarm to them and at worst completely hostile. And also, they're allied with Cygnar now. - I'm not a Skorne expert, by any means, but I'm pretty sure they're the combined arms faction, using Cataphractii, Venators and Praetorians together, each with their own role. No theme lets you do this (for some reason they took Venators and put them in their own theme). Those are the ones off the top of my head. I'm sure someone else has others in mind.
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Post by dirtyharrypotter on Nov 9, 2017 15:41:29 GMT
Fluff can mean a lot of things. I have Raluk and a freebooter in my krielcompany because I liked the idea of having a trollkin tinker with a big burly robot in my band of highwaymen, and added that at the expense of a warweagon. Given that I have thumpers and grim2 in there as well there's some synergies too but I started building that list with what I thought was a cool concept and tried to make that work.
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Post by galrohir on Nov 9, 2017 15:59:14 GMT
Fluff can mean a lot of things. I have Raluk and a freebooter in my krielcompany because I liked the idea of having a trollkin tinker with a big burly robot in my band of highwaymen, and added that at the expense of a warweagon. Given that I have thumpers and grim2 in there as well there's some synergies too but I started building that list with what I thought was a cool concept and tried to make that work. This is a bit off topic, but is that actually legal? IIRC they had to errata Thornfall Alliance to let him take a Warjack, I'm not sure he currently can if you take him in Kriel Company as your one merc/minion choice.
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Post by dirtyharrypotter on Nov 9, 2017 16:30:38 GMT
I was wondering about that too. My group said it was possible soon before all the themes dropped last month and that battlecollege was incorrect on this matter. I looked through every theme on that list and none of em made special mention of raluk being able to take a Jack, not even thornfall, so I assumed it was ok to give him a jack in kriel company too. I hope so otherwise I bought a really cool looking paperweight ><
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Post by safetyturtle on Nov 9, 2017 16:40:42 GMT
Now I'm fairly new to WM/H, but something like the Gravediggers list seems pretty fluffy to me as it basically throws all of the Trencher units into a list, barring almost everything else. And yeah, sure, Siege or Kraye may be more fluffy in such a list, but I doubt that Nemo, Haley, Stryker etc would flat out refuse to lead Trenchers into battle if it was needed.
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Post by galrohir on Nov 9, 2017 16:51:59 GMT
I was wondering about that too. My group said it was possible soon before all the themes dropped last month and that battlecollege was incorrect on this matter. I looked through every theme on that list and none of em made special mention of raluk being able to take a Jack, not even thornfall, so I assumed it was ok to give him a jack in kriel company too. I hope so otherwise I bought a really cool looking paperweight >< Thornfall has the caveat on Battlecollege, they site the change as December, 2016. I think the problem arises that, when you take Moorclaw in Trollbloods, he's a Minion. As such, he'd be a Minion 'Jack Marshal, which means he can Marshal [FACTION] Warjacks (per the rules on 'Jack Marshals in core). Since there's no Minion Warjacks, he can't Marshal anything. Hence the change in Thornfall.
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Post by GumbaFish on Nov 9, 2017 17:20:58 GMT
The biggest difference between the two for me is that Warmachine is much more enjoyable to play against strangers.
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Post by dirtyharrypotter on Nov 9, 2017 17:21:28 GMT
I was wondering about that too. My group said it was possible soon before all the themes dropped last month and that battlecollege was incorrect on this matter. I looked through every theme on that list and none of em made special mention of raluk being able to take a Jack, not even thornfall, so I assumed it was ok to give him a jack in kriel company too. I hope so otherwise I bought a really cool looking paperweight >< Thornfall has the caveat on Battlecollege, they site the change as December, 2016. I think the problem arises that, when you take Moorclaw in Trollbloods, he's a Minion. As such, he'd be a Minion 'Jack Marshal, which means he can Marshal [FACTION] Warjacks (per the rules on 'Jack Marshals in core). Since there's no Minion Warjacks, he can't Marshal anything. Hence the change in Thornfall. I can't find any such ruling in any PP documents though, and battlecollege is far from flawless. Do you know where PP ruled it as such?
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