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Post by killroundears on Oct 21, 2017 2:46:43 GMT
So with the new blindwater CID coming into effect i'm going to crack out my mk2 skorne models and see if i can make my old lord assassin who i used to run in hit squad come alive again. I'm intending to write up quite a comprehensive guide on them, but i need other players opinions and more importantly: table time. Every assumption has to be tested before i can really say for sure. Theorymachine in a vacuum leads to way too many "yeah but then x" or "y wont ever work or will always 100% work because z" So, what is your opinion on these two? my initial assumptions are: - Morghoul 2 is the superior all rounder (ie - vs a wider array of circumstances)
- Morghoul 3 however is greatly better vs battle engines that need to be silenced, and infantry swarms.
- Morghoul 3 is better in MoW (more friendly faction buffs, marketh) and Morghoul 2 is better in DoA (debuffs are minion friendly, Dracodile can make up for lack of turn to turn blind spell)
- Morghoul 2 is far superior in both the end game and in mid game assassinations with his feat
I'd love to hear your thoughts on them and their match ups, your experiences on the tabletop, and your predictions for their future. I won't be committing to writing the guide until i have put down a great amount of tabletop time however.
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skormedlover87
Junior Strategist
Desperately searching for days off to game...
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Post by skormedlover87 on Oct 21, 2017 6:17:03 GMT
So I'll start this by saying I haven't played since themes dropped because my job is dumb, so this is all "untested" but I'm not sure MoW is where Morghoul3 wants to be. I say this because Nihilators with him on feat is a thing of beauty. That knowledge I can vouch for 100%. Sure no Marketh sucks, sure limited options for his buffs, but damn, Nihilators with overtake...
Beyond that though I'm largely theory machining. I would question also whether Morghoul3 is less powerful late game. Because his girls are hard to deal with. High def is a great defense once things get tight. Especially since blind becomes part of the equation.
In terms of raw power though 2 is superior, I'd agree. Once I can I want to proxy test a list with him that has triple ambush.
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demonic
Junior Strategist
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Post by demonic on Oct 21, 2017 7:11:45 GMT
Morg2 is better at the solo game, but his feat is easily negatable against various armies. He also does not possess the ability to play to scenario.
Morg3 can't be negated as easily and can deliver several models for the same assassinations.
Even with this, I prefer Morg2 due to his capability to solo assassinate any target he gets a direct line to. However, if you can get blind on your assassination target, Morg3 is actually the better drop against spam lists.
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Post by killroundears on Oct 21, 2017 8:41:00 GMT
So I'll start this by saying I haven't played since themes dropped because my job is dumb, so this is all "untested" but I'm not sure MoW is where Morghoul3 wants to be. I say this because Nihilators with him on feat is a thing of beauty. That knowledge I can vouch for 100%. Sure no Marketh sucks, sure limited options for his buffs, but damn, Nihilators with overtake... Beyond that though I'm largely theory machining. I would question also whether Morghoul3 is less powerful late game. Because his girls are hard to deal with. High def is a great defense once things get tight. Especially since blind becomes part of the equation. In terms of raw power though 2 is superior, I'd agree. Once I can I want to proxy test a list with him that has triple ambush. I would be very interested to test Morg3 outsie of MoW. It being his home is really just the starting assumption. I'd love to hear about your battle reports and experience with him if you do any testing, feel free to PM me or post them in this thread Personally the reason why i made the guess that Morg2 is better late game comes from a few things: - Morghoul2's blind comes from himself, not from members of his unit. hes got innately +1 MAT and the ability to buy extra attacks over escorts. the escorts also lack parry or acrobatics meaning if they're stuck in somethings melee range they can't assist (like being b2b with something with 2" melee means apparition might not get them out)
- Morghoul2 has innate apparition meaning hes got +1 fury over morg3 in the end game (we assume marketh is either not in either army or died valiantly casting spells)
- Morghoul2's damage output is much, much higher if the opponent is not blinded
essentially morg3 really relies in the blind coming from his escorts, whereas morg2 does not.
i also kind of assume at least one if not both of the escorts die during the course of the game, it feels like they are kinda fragile
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granor
Junior Strategist
Posts: 353
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Post by granor on Oct 21, 2017 11:28:21 GMT
- Morghoul 3 however is greatly better vs battle engines that need to be silenced, and infantry swarms.
this may not be true after the CID drop privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?271226-Does-blind-expire-when-you-gain-eyeless-sight&p=3845013&viewfull=1#post3845013The mist speaker may get the faction portion of guidance+ dropped off giving anyone the ability to drop eyeless sight on their battle engine if they want to bring the combo. I have played morgoul2 in winds and his feat can be hard to apply and it never quite gets as deep as you want it to. Morgoul2's ability to kill things by himself should not be overlooked he has one of the highest damage outputs of all our casters. I have killed 2 light jacks in one turn before with him.
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skormedlover87
Junior Strategist
Desperately searching for days off to game...
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Post by skormedlover87 on Oct 21, 2017 18:04:02 GMT
The eyeless ruling is important to know but not deal breaking. Regarding the ladies being "stuck" when I've played against them it's never been an issue late game. Feat clears infantry well enough that you're largely left with support models and battlegroup pieces. They go in and blind those pieces and repo away. They'll take a free strike but at that def +4, good luck.
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zich
Junior Strategist
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Post by zich on Oct 21, 2017 20:11:03 GMT
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Post by eterenal on Nov 2, 2017 13:29:53 GMT
- Morghoul 3 however is greatly better vs battle engines that need to be silenced, and infantry swarms.
this may not be true after the CID drop privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?271226-Does-blind-expire-when-you-gain-eyeless-sight&p=3845013&viewfull=1#post3845013The mist speaker may get the faction portion of guidance+ dropped off giving anyone the ability to drop eyeless sight on their battle engine if they want to bring the combo. I have played morgoul2 in winds and his feat can be hard to apply and it never quite gets as deep as you want it to. Morgoul2's ability to kill things by himself should not be overlooked he has one of the highest damage outputs of all our casters. I have killed 2 light jacks in one turn before with him. Eh, it's a minion model that people won't want to take in their themes (Eilish probably gets that spot in a lot of cases for the utility) and only works for four factions. Legion won't be taking it because most of their stuff already has eyeless sight, Trolls don't play the theme that lets them take their BE, and Skorne already has Guidance for the turtle. If anything, that ruling helps us since the turtle is one of the best BE's and now has an easy way to avoid being blinded.
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granor
Junior Strategist
Posts: 353
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Post by granor on Nov 2, 2017 14:43:53 GMT
you don't think skorne will bring it in war host? Feels pretty important in my meta to making warhost really work. Though the drake spam could sidestep the need.
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Post by killroundears on Nov 2, 2017 23:41:11 GMT
you don't think skorne will bring it in war host? Feels pretty important in my meta to making warhost really work. Though the drake spam could sidestep the need. I'm fairly sure its going to get brought in some war host lists. For example i know people playing Hexy2 in war host would love a source of eyeless for him and magic weapons for the turtles
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Post by eterenal on Nov 7, 2017 14:24:57 GMT
My point was he only plays for four factions, yet you act like he completely bones Morghoul3's blind game into Battle Engines. I'm not sure why you're pointing out Skorne when 1) it's the mirror match and 2) we already had access to Guidance.
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granor
Junior Strategist
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Post by granor on Nov 7, 2017 16:04:18 GMT
My point was he only plays for four factions, My mistake I thought they had changed him to work for warmachine also. Well given the lists of the LCQ winner you may not even run into SA with Skorne, that is surprising to me, but I can't argue with the success of winning the LCQ.
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boozy
Junior Strategist
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Post by boozy on Nov 7, 2017 21:22:39 GMT
This thread is primarily a comparison between Morghouls 2 and 3, but I have a question for the group about them.
I was tinkering with a Morghoul2 list, and took a look at the Bone Shrine. Hot damn. I like the idea of up to 2 extra Fury per turn for 4pts a lot.
Normally I'd try to slot in a utility solo like Eilish/Orin, or some other techy guy as my sole minion allowed in theme, but two Bone Shrines might be the new hotness.
Whatcha all think? Is Morghoul2 better off generally with the extra Fury, or a toolboxy solo? Same with Morghoul3 I guess. His personal assassination starts and ends with the target being Blind. I love the Dracodile with him to deliver it sans spell. Does he then need the extra Fury?
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granor
Junior Strategist
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Post by granor on Nov 7, 2017 21:49:41 GMT
I was tinkering with a Morghoul2 list, and took a look at the Bone Shrine. Hot damn. I like the idea of up to 2 extra Fury per turn for 4pts a lot. pretty sure this doesn't work the bone shrine needs FF warlock and the solos in the theme don't change faction like the beasts do as far as I can tell.
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boozy
Junior Strategist
Posts: 429
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Post by boozy on Nov 7, 2017 21:56:07 GMT
I was tinkering with a Morghoul2 list, and took a look at the Bone Shrine. Hot damn. I like the idea of up to 2 extra Fury per turn for 4pts a lot. pretty sure this doesn't work the bone shrine needs FF warlock and the solos in the theme don't change faction like the beasts do as far as I can tell. Piss. I'll check War Room, but you're probably right. Too bad.
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