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Post by Big Fat Troll on Oct 17, 2017 1:57:17 GMT
I don't have the CID cards in front of me but doesn't the basher's animus gives him Chiller? That's a pretty solid MAT fix for all of our beasts and he's significantly more durable than a Shaman. I'm looking at the Brawler with Ragnor and pGrissel. Ragnor gives him a damage buff that frees him from needing Rage and still allows Rush (not to mention the threat vectors made possible with Beatback and 2" reach). pGrissel does the same thing the other way with Boundless Charge removing the need for Rush. That's correct, and yet another reason to get a Basher. Or more... conflictchamber.com/#c7201b_-0biV9DiU0hiXiXiXiXiXjq7dfJfJ6Rfp0ki-Trollbloods Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] The Power of Dhunia !!! Your army contains CID entries. (Borka 2) Borka, Vengeance of the Rimeshaws [+27] - Dire Troll Mauler [15] - Rok [19] - Troll Axer [10] - Troll Basher [7] - Troll Basher [7] - Troll Basher [7] - Troll Basher [7] - Troll Basher [7] - Trollkin Runebearer [0(5)] Janissa Stonetide [0(4)] Northkin Shaman [0(4)] Northkin Shaman [4] Troll Whelps [4] Dhunian Knot [6] Krielstone Bearer & Stone Scribes (min) [6] - Northkin Elder [3] Grissel's Missiles? Borka's Bashers! Actually, Lanyssa would probably be better than Janissa here. That will take some getting used to.
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Post by gobber on Oct 17, 2017 2:50:12 GMT
If we're going down that road...
Horgle2 Mtn.King Basher x7 Knot, Min Stone Free whelpsx2, runebearer
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Post by macdaddy on Oct 17, 2017 15:57:03 GMT
Imagine crit staggering a Collossal and laughing as it struggles to kill a light with just 3 attacks...
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A-Mo
Junior Strategist
Posts: 204
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Post by A-Mo on Oct 17, 2017 21:15:21 GMT
With Borka2, the beat back on the Basher could come in handy. Something charges a heavy, and get just in 1", Basher counter charges and knocks it out.
Per the sculpt, it will be a shame if he doesn't come with an off hand attack. Should be a .5" pow 12. Or give the mace 2" reach and say he's two handing it.
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Post by gobber on Oct 17, 2017 21:17:04 GMT
With Borka2, the beat back on the Basher could come in handy. Something charges a heavy, and get just in 1", Basher counter charges and knocks it out. Beat back is sadly limited to combat action
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Post by macdaddy on Oct 18, 2017 2:25:45 GMT
With Borka2, the beat back on the Basher could come in handy. Something charges a heavy, and get just in 1", Basher counter charges and knocks it out. Per the sculpt, it will be a shame if he doesn't come with an off hand attack. Should be a .5" pow 12. Or give the mace 2" reach and say he's two handing it. As Gobber said, beat back won't work but there is still a decent chance of landing a crit stagger and taking away that heavies initials which is hilarious. I advocated pretty hard for an offhand attack in cid from the start but the devs never seemed to want to go that route. even at P+S 11 or 12 it would just be nice to have the extra attack for a little extra damage and because it has a free hand on the darn model....
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Post by elricaltovilla on Oct 18, 2017 2:50:36 GMT
With Borka2, the beat back on the Basher could come in handy. Something charges a heavy, and get just in 1", Basher counter charges and knocks it out. Per the sculpt, it will be a shame if he doesn't come with an off hand attack. Should be a .5" pow 12. Or give the mace 2" reach and say he's two handing it. As Gobber said, beat back won't work but there is still a decent chance of landing a crit stagger and taking away that heavies initials which is hilarious. I advocated pretty hard for an offhand attack in cid from the start but the devs never seemed to want to go that route. even at P+S 11 or 12 it would just be nice to have the extra attack for a little extra damage and because it has a free hand on the darn model.... I have a hard time seeing anything with only one initial as being particularly viable in melee. I mean a furied destroyer has a higher MAT and P+S but struggles to kill things consistently. At the very least it needs an open fist so it can do throws.
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Post by gobber on Oct 18, 2017 5:47:47 GMT
As Gobber said, beat back won't work but there is still a decent chance of landing a crit stagger and taking away that heavies initials which is hilarious. I advocated pretty hard for an offhand attack in cid from the start but the devs never seemed to want to go that route. even at P+S 11 or 12 it would just be nice to have the extra attack for a little extra damage and because it has a free hand on the darn model.... I have a hard time seeing anything with only one initial as being particularly viable in melee. I mean a furied destroyer has a higher MAT and P+S but struggles to kill things consistently. At the very least it needs an open fist so it can do throws. Under ideal circumstances (free charges, rage, normalstone, and a further +2 from calamity/mortality/rust/pulverizer) they've got a 25.4% chance to 1 round a khador heavy (23.5 avg if everything hits). Horgle's feat with rage and stone (56.6% to 1round), Grissel1 full buffstack, and stacking Hutchuck's rust with free charges and another +2 damage buff are the only situations it is actually likely to kill a khador heavy on its own but that's more than fine performance for a 7pt light. If you can critfix for it (calandra, doomies, horgle, knot, etc) the stagger effect and a bit of damage is totally worthwhile.
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mazog
Junior Strategist
Walking and talking
Posts: 748
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Post by mazog on Oct 18, 2017 5:50:39 GMT
Guided hand and a boosted attack will get you very good odds of critical on just about anything, if Madrak1 keeps it.
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Post by Trollock on Oct 18, 2017 8:24:30 GMT
I have a hard time seeing anything with only one initial as being particularly viable in melee. I mean a furied destroyer has a higher MAT and P+S but struggles to kill things consistently. At the very least it needs an open fist so it can do throws. Comparing a 7 point light to a 14 point heavy with a +3 POW buff seems a bit unfair. But you are correct. The Basher will need SERIOUS support if you want it to one round an ARM 20 heavy. Can you really expect a light beast to do that though? There ARE other jobs to do in this game than one rounding ARM 20 heavies. It has natural pathfinder which is very good to be able to get in to a zone and contest. It is not trivial to remove even if it is not precisely hard either. It has an interesting Animus that can make your other things hit more accurately. A Raged Mauler will often make scrap metal of the usual ARM 20 heavy, but when it comes up against the DEF 14 ARM 17 kind, it can struggle, since it sort of need to boost to hit. Having a Basher nearby takes that Angelius to a DEF 12 ARM 17 beast, and that melts to basically anything. It has Beat Back, that can help you get a model that you can not really kill out of a zone to score. If all else fails, you can try what Trolls do best and stack buffs on it until things fold. Grissel 1 can give it a free charge, and effectively +6 POW and +2 (or 4 if you are crazy) MAT and an extra attack. That is 5 attacks at POW 20 and one of them is a charge. That WILL actually scrap the average Khador heavy. It costs you a lot of Fury, and you need to have other models around to do it, but you only have to actually commit a 7 point light for the trade. I do not think Basher spam will be a thing. I too lament the single initial. But including a Basher in a list can have some nice perks. Ill be sure to buy one at least
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Post by elricaltovilla on Oct 18, 2017 11:04:31 GMT
I have a hard time seeing anything with only one initial as being particularly viable in melee. I mean a furied destroyer has a higher MAT and P+S but struggles to kill things consistently. At the very least it needs an open fist so it can do throws. Comparing a 7 point light to a 14 point heavy with a +3 POW buff seems a bit unfair. But you are correct. The Basher will need SERIOUS support if you want it to one round an ARM 20 heavy. Can you really expect a light beast to do that though? There ARE other jobs to do in this game than one rounding ARM 20 heavies. Not in the context of the comparison it's not. The Basher is supposed to be a cheap missile that can start a piece trade effectively. It's points cost is irrelevant once you've established whether or not it is "cheap" (which I think we can all agree it is). The question is whether or not it can effectively trade up against an enemy in order to make its points back. If an equivalent number of attacks with +1 MAT and +1 POW can't effectively do the job, then how can you expect the Basher to do it? Sure Grissel1 can take it there, but how many of your resources did you actually use to initiate the trade? Instead, I'm left to conclude that the Basher needs to rely on its crit effect to trade effectively. Crit Stagger is stellar and nearly guarantees that the Basher can keep its target from finishing off the basher with a counter attack, but I think everyone here knows how effective a strategy relying on crit effects is. I do want to look into the math more, so I may come back to this later.
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Post by macdaddy on Oct 18, 2017 12:44:20 GMT
You are not supposed to "trade" effectively with a 7 point light. Just like 10 point heavies should not be able to one round the average 15+ point heavy without a good amount of support. Sadly in warmachine particularly 10 and 12 point heavies are really good at murdering other heavies and are easily supported and spammable which is why jack spam was such an issue (and can still be an issue) for the majority of MK3.
With an additional pow 11 or 12 initial I really do not think it goes over the edge, it gains small amount of additional damage. It is mostly to compensate for the occasionally flubbed hit roll with he mace and help skew the math a bit back in the favor of the basher. Because of its extra initials the night troll is a more reliable buff sponge even though the average damage output is similar assuming all attacks hit. The night troll loses less when it misses and initial where the basher loses 1/4 or more of its momentum when it misses and initial attack.
Pathfinder and the animus are a big deal though (granted the night troll should probably also have pathfinder and a useful animus or reworded version of it) but I think as far as a mainstay combat light the Basher is in an OK place. It is cheap, provides a useful animus and can potentially knock around heavy targets (and trades really well into other lights)
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Post by Hotwater on Oct 18, 2017 16:16:02 GMT
Of Each?
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A-Mo
Junior Strategist
Posts: 204
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Post by A-Mo on Oct 18, 2017 18:25:10 GMT
As Gobber said, beat back won't work but there is still a decent chance of landing a crit stagger and taking away that heavies initials which is hilarious. I advocated pretty hard for an offhand attack in cid from the start but the devs never seemed to want to go that route. even at P+S 11 or 12 it would just be nice to have the extra attack for a little extra damage and because it has a free hand on the darn model.... I have a hard time seeing anything with only one initial as being particularly viable in melee. I mean a furied destroyer has a higher MAT and P+S but struggles to kill things consistently. At the very least it needs an open fist so it can do throws. BOOOOOO on the combate action part, booooooo. Oh well. I did see your posts on off hand attacks, and added the same opinion hoping it would help. I'd be sad to see this feedback ignored.
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Post by Big Fat Troll on Oct 19, 2017 2:55:36 GMT
Guided hand and a boosted attack will get you very good odds of critical on just about anything, if Madrak1 keeps it. He did but its duration is only for the turn. On the bright side, it works with Fenns now...
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