boozy
Junior Strategist
Posts: 429
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Post by boozy on Oct 7, 2017 22:41:07 GMT
I play a couple factions, and like to read about all of them to get ideas or tech I should prepare for. There's something common to most of them that keeps reoccurring. Everyone seems to think Cryx won the lottery, and that theirs suck in comparison.
I haven't seen much salt about ours, and in my opinion, rightly so. Disciples of Agony, Masters of War, and Exalted all seem like solid themes for a handful of warlocks, and absolutely phenomenal with at least one warlock in particular. I don't discount any of them as being good somewhere.
What does everyone else think about our themes? Would you agree that compared to most of the other factions, we have a themes that when evaluated are better in total than other factions?
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cassus
Junior Strategist
Posts: 156
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Post by cassus on Oct 8, 2017 1:01:32 GMT
All our themes besides immortals are top notch, and immortals could certinly get their if its gets a cid cycle like trenchers or northkin did to give it more options. IWH is my personal favorite and my Zaadesh2 beast brick is till undefeated at my local store. Masters of war will probably become to top skorne theme people play in tournaments since so many people were already running Mak2 cats before this realsed, however I think it has game with infantry as well that has yet to be unlocked. DOA just needs to be figured out or something released to get those minion troops to count as friendly faction for it to be super competitive. That said in DOA brigands with UA and mortality on something means what ever that thing is its gonna be dead as they hit at effective Pow 16 which is no joke consider a full strength unit has 12 shots.
Compared to most factions I think we got off great.
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Post by sentinel on Oct 8, 2017 5:02:36 GMT
Whats exactly your zaadesh2 list looks like?
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didder
Junior Strategist
Posts: 166
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Post by didder on Oct 8, 2017 5:04:31 GMT
I'm very happy with all of our themes. Masters of War is both my favorite and the one I think is strongest. Imperial Warhost I like the least, but I don't think it is weak. I think winds is still very good, but might have issues with the new carapace cryx theme. Time will have to tell if it's a big factor or not.
Disciples seems clearly strong to me, though only with Morghoul2. I like it with a good mix of infantry and beasts. The theme is so wide open with so many options, just not too many free points.
I do think immortals is the weakest, but it's still strong. It depends a lot on opponent awareness. If they know to commit to killing most of a unit of immortals down instead of a handful from three different units, it's trouble. If they know to snipe out advocates with channeled zap spells, it's horrendous. If they know to shoot down your guardians to deny Resonance, it's bad. If they know to avoid triggering zaal2s righteous vengeance and stay out of his spell threat range, it's a tough time. Experienced opponents can run rings around it sometimes, though it's still a game.
To sum: 1. Masters of War 2. Disciples 3. Winds 4. Warhost 5. Exalted
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boozy
Junior Strategist
Posts: 429
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Post by boozy on Oct 8, 2017 5:23:33 GMT
"Whats exactly your zaadesh2 list looks like?"Something happened to my post, don't feel like scrawling it out again. TLDR: If you like Zaadesh2 in IWH, try it with Sentries in Exalted. I've done it will a single unit of Immortals, an AG, and free Hakaar, and just straight 'beasts for the Death Rage benefit. Stupid, silly fun, and very effective against common lists. It laughs at shooting, and is dangerous to try and alpha strike in melee.
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hoksune
Baby's First Wargame
Posts: 5
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Post by hoksune on Oct 8, 2017 10:00:06 GMT
For my money I would rank them something like this:
Winds of Death Imperial Warhost Masters of War Disciples of Agony The Exalted
But I feel like it's not actually a fair rep of the theme strength. It's just my opinion that our strongest caster (Rasheth) likes WoD the best, and WoD Rasheth is the strongest list in the faction. As a result, this makes it the best theme to actually take, assuming you're playing the theme. By the same token, the best 2nd list for our best caster is either a more dedicated Cryx drop (Hexy2 in Winds, for example) or, accepting your 50/50ish game vs Cryx and playing something to absolutely wreck the extreme armour saturation Rasheth doesn't care for. Enter Imperial Warhost.
In a weird, casterless vacuum I'd probably rank the themes something in the order of IWH (20 free points spent on battlegroup is really hard to ignore) > WoD / MoW > DoA > Exalted. MoW especially I think is an excellent theme force, and if Mordikaar had Ghost Walk & Banishing Ward still I would absolutely love it. Sadly he's basically rolling with 3 spells on his card at present, so the best use for this theme is probably the Makedas. The KitKats build slots nicely into it, and the tough + RFP actually synergises quite well with that list, although time will tell if it makes an effective Cryx drop (my money is it'll be a tightrope to walk, and then when the Crone solo comes out it's back to being in GFs favour decisively) but the problem with the theme just now is it isn't any better at bullying matchups than any of our other lists. It's not a bad list, it's just waiting for a meta that's right for it I think. You can build some obscene anti shooting bricks in the theme, but that's not a huge problem we have just now, they don't love spreading out and hey, it's not like you can't put 3 free Kreas if you wanted in IWH. Still, I think all 3 of these themes are excellent and support a myriad of Warlocks, the top end of Skorne is pretty close after Rasheth in my opinion, and Rasheth isn't super far ahead that you can't succeed without him. Skorne's in a good place right now. Oh, and 2 of these 3 themes let us bring the Animantarax.
As for the other themes... Wooft. DoA is perhaps the most unique theme force in the game? Problem it has is that the free points come from minions units, and by and large that's not really what we want to be spending our points on. Barring Morghoul2/Xekaar our warlocks in that theme do nothing for Minion units (okay Morghoul3's blind works but mirage, occultation and his feat don't) and generally want to play beast heavy. The sac pawn on not-naaresh is nice for sure, but I've yet to see a build from this list that doesn't just look like a worse version of either Rasheth Winds of Death, or just look better with 20 free points in Imperial Warhost. Maybe someone smarter than me can figure it out, I hope so because thematically this theme force is -awesome-.
The Exalted I think a lot of people on this board have already reached conclusions on, and not much more needs to be said. It's incredibly restrictive and the bonuses aren't very strong. I feel really bad for Zaal1 not being able to take AGs outside of this theme, if he could take them in Masters of War he'd be much happier.
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Post by bloodsplatterartist on Oct 8, 2017 10:37:54 GMT
For my money I would rank them something like this: Winds of Death Imperial Warhost Masters of War Disciples of Agony The Exalted But I feel like it's not actually a fair rep of the theme strength. It's just my opinion that our strongest caster (Rasheth) likes WoD the best, and WoD Rasheth is the strongest list in the faction. As a result, this makes it the best theme to actually take, assuming you're playing the theme. By the same token, the best 2nd list for our best caster is either a more dedicated Cryx drop (Hexy2 in Winds, for example) or, accepting your 50/50ish game vs Cryx and playing something to absolutely wreck the extreme armour saturation Rasheth doesn't care for. Enter Imperial Warhost. In a weird, casterless vacuum I'd probably rank the themes something in the order of IWH (20 free points spent on battlegroup is really hard to ignore) > WoD / MoW > DoA > Exalted. MoW especially I think is an excellent theme force, and if Mordikaar had Ghost Walk & Banishing Ward still I would absolutely love it. Sadly he's basically rolling with 3 spells on his card at present, so the best use for this theme is probably the Makedas. The KitKats build slots nicely into it, and the tough + RFP actually synergises quite well with that list, although time will tell if it makes an effective Cryx drop (my money is it'll be a tightrope to walk, and then when the Crone solo comes out it's back to being in GFs favour decisively) but the problem with the theme just now is it isn't any better at bullying matchups than any of our other lists. It's not a bad list, it's just waiting for a meta that's right for it I think. You can build some obscene anti shooting bricks in the theme, but that's not a huge problem we have just now, they don't love spreading out and hey, it's not like you can't put 3 free Kreas if you wanted in IWH. Still, I think all 3 of these themes are excellent and support a myriad of Warlocks, the top end of Skorne is pretty close after Rasheth in my opinion, and Rasheth isn't super far ahead that you can't succeed without him. Skorne's in a good place right now. Oh, and 2 of these 3 themes let us bring the Animantarax. As for the other themes... Wooft. DoA is perhaps the most unique theme force in the game? Problem it has is that the free points come from minions units, and by and large that's not really what we want to be spending our points on. Barring Morghoul2/Xekaar our warlocks in that theme do nothing for Minion units (okay Morghoul3's blind works but mirage, occultation and his feat don't) and generally want to play beast heavy. The sac pawn on not-naaresh is nice for sure, but I've yet to see a build from this list that doesn't just look like a worse version of either Rasheth Winds of Death, or just look better with 20 free points in Imperial Warhost. Maybe someone smarter than me can figure it out, I hope so because thematically this theme force is -awesome-. The Exalted I think a lot of people on this board have already reached conclusions on, and not much more needs to be said. It's incredibly restrictive and the bonuses aren't very strong. I feel really bad for Zaal1 not being able to take AGs outside of this theme, if he could take them in Masters of War he'd be much happier. DoA offers free points for any units not just minions. I'm tooling with a morghoul3 list that starts with 2 units of blood runners max nihlators and paingiver which is exactly 40 points for 2 free solos. You can also put occulation on the nihlators and have all your Frontline infantry have stealth. Your then left with 55 points to spend on a bg or take an extra Merc unit for another free solo.
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granor
Junior Strategist
Posts: 353
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Post by granor on Oct 9, 2017 16:29:32 GMT
I look at what combos that are above the normal power curve the themes can field.
winds and imperial host allow double SA with a backing of soulwards or aggys and krea depending on what the list needs to field. The SA is clearly the most powerful piece in the faction but has very few good combos with casters. So I would rank this combination as having the most raw power in faction. One weakness to the combination is dropping it into cryx as the SAs will need the proper support from the rest of the army to compete well. This will include upkeep removal, magical weapons, and an ability to kill small based solos. The added rules for this theme are on the weaker end with imperial warhost having better benefits with the loss of the soulwards.
Masters of War allows for the most combinations inside of the faction as they have the largest in faction model selection. Ferox with a def bonus such as def ward(xerxis1), stay death(mac2), or defiance of the void(mac1) is an extremely powerful option. Their speed and maneuverability are difficult to deal with and the theme compounds this. Cetrati with some kind of def bonus such as those listed above are a difficult question for many opponents to economically answer. The main issue with this combo is of course speed which the theme helps with. Karax backed by an aggy is a cheap question that many lists have issues dealing with. Unfortunately while the theme allows this combo it doesn't really help the combo out much though the extra speed is of course helpful or getting a free CA improves the tactically flexibility of the karax unit. The added rules for this theme are extremely powerful as going first or choosing sides is a large advantage and the RFP looks to be very helpful against cryx. The theme also allows for soulwards giving the list access to magical weapons should the meta require them. The drawback of no shaman does compete against being a cryx drop by losing spirit blade and without a gun the army becomes reliant on ferox or incinderii to deal with troublesome solos. Personally I have found ferox to be up for the challenge. I would rate these combos as second in raw power but with the ability to become meta answering lists.
The Exalted pretty much only gives you immortal spam at the moment. If a player want to play zaal1 or zaal2 this theme really helps those casters. The main issue I have found is what the list is trying to do seems to be done just better with karax spam in masters of war. I rank this theme as the weakest in skorne by a good margin.
Disciples of Agony allows skorne to spam archidons and light warbeasts. Being build on minion warbeasts gives me very little prior experience with these kinds of data and I am not sure how the power level of this list will shake out.
Over all I feel your tournament pair will consist of a list with 2 SAs and a list with masters of war containing ferox and catapharct. DoA could creep into the pairing if the meta allows it or if some combination is found to fight cryx. I feel playing immortals right now is playing with a sub-par list that is obviously missing a power piece and some other tools.
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Post by illrede on Oct 9, 2017 22:56:30 GMT
The Exalted pretty much only gives you immortal spam at the moment. If a player want to play zaal1 or zaal2 this theme really helps those casters. The main issue I have found is what the list is trying to do seems to be done just better with karax spam in masters of war. I rank this theme as the weakest in skorne by a good margin. If that's true our other themes are something amazing, because The Exalted is quite strong. What it does is give you immortal spam with a full toolkit, which is something a degree better than immortal spam. Karax + Agonizer spam Masters of War is for Mordikaar, I think. I know what you are talking about there, in that it's showing itself a mirror image of my Immortals + Krea spam with Zaal2. Photo negatives of eachother, even (anti-shooting quasi-feat, anti-melee feat win on grind and out of nowhere assassination vs. anti-shooting feat, anti-melee quasi-feat win on grind and out of nowhere assassination). I still wouldn't say it's interchangeable though, yet.
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granor
Junior Strategist
Posts: 353
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Post by granor on Oct 10, 2017 14:59:52 GMT
The SA really is that good but you really have to know how to play all its rules. A good test would be lormahordes.freeforums.net/post/54532/threadHow could skorne win the game between top of 4 and bot of 4? If you can get it figured out you know the SA's rules better than I do. I totally missed the move during the game. The karax to immortals comparison is just a straight dojo for me right now but given that immortals with CA is 2 points more than karax with aggy seems to me give the karax a huge advantage. Then you stack on the fact that the MoW theme gives some of the best benefits and the exalted gives one of little consequence (death rage) and only one soul that just tills the entire discussion to the karax to me. I have played karax with aggy and they are good but I ave not played the immortals in Mk3.
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Post by illrede on Oct 10, 2017 15:51:55 GMT
The karax to immortals comparison is just a straight dojo for me right now but given that immortals with CA is 2 points more than karax with aggy seems to me give the karax a huge advantage. Then you stack on the fact that the MoW theme gives some of the best benefits and the exalted gives one of little consequence (death rage) and only one soul that just tills the entire discussion to the karax to me. I have played karax with aggy and they are good but I ave not played the immortals in Mk3. The differences are weird and interesting, and again with the photo-negative thing. Immortals are more concentrated in offense and a "crown" of Immortals around a single point at the end of turn happens a lot for me (able to put as many pow13's on a single target as you care to, while Karax CMAs can sit at decent pow but the number that go into a single enemy model is quite limited) but defensively Immortals are very dispersed (Immortals on defense are best in a series of loose skirmish lines) while Karax are usually concentrated (some poor sod pulls voltiguere* duty, but mostly you're trying to form shield walls, so lower footprint, less depth, even then). So things fall apart based on two completely opposite things that both get units killed at the game's midpoint- Immortal accretion and Karax dispersal. They both possess one unique game-altering trick- the Immortals can take an incorporeal jaunt into the enemy formation. Karax can make your army immune to blast damage. *french napoleonic light infantry. What made them interesting is that unlike jaegers and greenjackets who were equipped as specialist skirmishers with rifles, they were just guys with muskets out in front.
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Post by sardonicartery on Oct 10, 2017 17:23:16 GMT
I hate to say it, but you need to ask which themes/builds help against boogeymen:
-Jack spam -Grymkin -Ghost fleet / banes
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Post by illrede on Oct 10, 2017 17:35:12 GMT
I hate to say it, but you need to ask which themes/builds help against boogeymen: -Jack spam -Grymkin -Ghost fleet / banes Oh yeah. Zaal1 can deal with 'Jack spam again. I haven't put the Exalted into the Grymkin nightmare match yet, I'm probably going to have to request somebody to build their list with the right specifications.
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Post by sardonicartery on Oct 10, 2017 17:46:59 GMT
Really? I thought Zaal1 got left in MK2 (with his glorious theme) because jacks got too cheap.
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Post by illrede on Oct 10, 2017 18:01:15 GMT
Really? I thought Zaal1 got left in MK2 (with his glorious theme) because jacks got too cheap. That was exactly the thing. The math just got terrible (and it is math, Zaal1 model removal tending to be transactional thing). Then even worse. I actually stopped bringing him to tournaments entirely, instead of just bringing him and not playing him. Enough free points to fit in an entire extra unit takes him back over the hump, from initial performance.
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