Post by Trollock on Oct 2, 2017 8:59:45 GMT
The recent update to BoH has me really excited! BoH always had several things going for it, but you basically payed the price of not getting many free solos unless you played some really specific and one dimensional builds. That restriction is gone now, and this opens up lots and lots of new possibilities for us.
In addition, the CID changes (that are not yet live, but i am going to go ahead and assume they stay anyway) makes champions and Long riders MUCH more valid.
At the same time as BoH was updated though, SotN was released too, and many of the models that work for BoH also work for SotN. Thanks to the Northkin tag applied to all warrior models in the SotN theme in combination with possible support from the NK elder and the HHH, i think that SotN is a stronger theme over all. It has access to ranged options, stronger infantry support and F-ing Bears!
BoH has a few things going for it though, so let us check the pros and cons.
+2" of deployment.
This is not really interesting actually imo. The +1 SPD that you can give to basically everything with the northkin elder in SotN makes up for the difference. Of course it is not the exact same thing, but the difference is probably insignificant.
Pseudo Take Down
This is the big thing. Access to RFP that works on undead models is rare in the game, but BoH has a lot of it. So much so that it MAY force a Cryx player off Ghost Fleet. Hence, a big reason to build a BoH list should probably be to cover certain match ups.
Access to Fennblades
Fennblades have incredible threat range and are very good at killing infantry with the normal support. If you are going to try and use the Fennblades for a specific purpose (clearing infantry) and you do not prefer NK Raiders who actually preform very similarly You have a good reason to play BoH.
Access to Warders
Warders are not the best models ever, but having a multitude of shield guards really changes how some match ups work. Your fennblades die in droves to small arms fire, but if 6 of them get saved by Warders who shrug off the bullet, the table will look very different. Warders can be a HUGE help in some match ups. Caine 3 can kill many casters even of 3+ camp, but if you add a handful of shield guards, he has no chance.
So, if you are going to build a melee based infantry list, you should probably stop and think. Is this best suited as a BoH list or a SotN list? I started building lists and discovered that a lot of them were based around Champions or Long Riders. I went back with some critical questions. Was this a Cryx-drop, to take advantage of the pseudo take down? Were Fennblades something that i wanted in the list? How about Warders? In a few cases i discovered that the list was better suited for SoTN, when i simply considered the Northkin Elder over the SS Elder. This gave me access to free upkeeps which is really nice for many casters. It also gave me the option of switching in bears. The opposite was true as well. Some lists i had planned to run in SotN were better suited if i tweaked them a bit and ran them in BoH. Most importantly perhaps was that many lists i had built in BoH that felt very lack luster all of a sudden got some extra free solos and that blew their potential wide open. Probably my favorite example is Madrak2 Dude spam:
conflictchamber.com/#c7201b_-0a4X9D5-6G6G0n0o0o0k0m0b0c0b0c
Trollbloods Army - 75 / 75 points
[Theme] Band of Heroes
(Madrak 2) Madrak Ironhide, World Ender [+28]
- Dire Troll Mauler [15]
- Earthborn Dire Troll [15]
Fell Caller Hero [0(5)]
Fell Caller Hero [0(5)]
Kriel Warriors (min) [7]
Kriel Warriors (max) [11]
Kriel Warriors (max) [11]
Krielstone Bearer & Stone Scribes (min) [6]
- Stone Scribe Elder [3]
Trollkin Fennblades (max) [15]
- Fennblade Officer and Drummer [0(5)]
Trollkin Fennblades (max) [15]
- Fennblade Officer and Drummer [5]
This list is skewed towards infantry, and it was possible to build a similar list before. It did get an extra 15 free points now though, and that allowed me to take some luxuries to make the list work better. A second Fell Caller makes for a lot smoother game play, and less vulnerability. An attachment to the stone allowed me to have an out against incorporeal models. And finally a third (though a min) unit of Warriors add another layer of meat wall that can not be ignored. The list asks the question "how much infantry can you kill before they get to you?" and these additions made the list go from "possibly playable" to "definitely worth exploring as an anti-infantry drop". Banes want no part of this list. The cryx player can certainly kill lots of infantry before the lines clash, but a single fennblade could kill like 10 banes and immediately even the odds. Denny in Ghost fleet can control the list with her feat and shooting, but can she get through it all before you can connect with the pirates? If you get there you can probably surf to the leader models and then RFP them, to prevent pirates from coming back. I do not know how this will actually play out, but it is very interesting to me.
Oh, and just think about the Khador match up. Killing Pikemen sounds like something your MAT 8 POW 12 weaponmaster fennblades can do with berserk and overtake, right? And do you REALLY want to play 10 marauders against this list? Granted that POW 12 weaponmasters do not mulch ARM 20 jacks super well, but there are a LOT of them, and how will the Khador player do on scenario?
Very interesting questions...
PS. this post does not even consider Madrak 1 after CID... That guy seems HAWT now
In addition, the CID changes (that are not yet live, but i am going to go ahead and assume they stay anyway) makes champions and Long riders MUCH more valid.
At the same time as BoH was updated though, SotN was released too, and many of the models that work for BoH also work for SotN. Thanks to the Northkin tag applied to all warrior models in the SotN theme in combination with possible support from the NK elder and the HHH, i think that SotN is a stronger theme over all. It has access to ranged options, stronger infantry support and F-ing Bears!
BoH has a few things going for it though, so let us check the pros and cons.
+2" of deployment.
This is not really interesting actually imo. The +1 SPD that you can give to basically everything with the northkin elder in SotN makes up for the difference. Of course it is not the exact same thing, but the difference is probably insignificant.
Pseudo Take Down
This is the big thing. Access to RFP that works on undead models is rare in the game, but BoH has a lot of it. So much so that it MAY force a Cryx player off Ghost Fleet. Hence, a big reason to build a BoH list should probably be to cover certain match ups.
Access to Fennblades
Fennblades have incredible threat range and are very good at killing infantry with the normal support. If you are going to try and use the Fennblades for a specific purpose (clearing infantry) and you do not prefer NK Raiders who actually preform very similarly You have a good reason to play BoH.
Access to Warders
Warders are not the best models ever, but having a multitude of shield guards really changes how some match ups work. Your fennblades die in droves to small arms fire, but if 6 of them get saved by Warders who shrug off the bullet, the table will look very different. Warders can be a HUGE help in some match ups. Caine 3 can kill many casters even of 3+ camp, but if you add a handful of shield guards, he has no chance.
So, if you are going to build a melee based infantry list, you should probably stop and think. Is this best suited as a BoH list or a SotN list? I started building lists and discovered that a lot of them were based around Champions or Long Riders. I went back with some critical questions. Was this a Cryx-drop, to take advantage of the pseudo take down? Were Fennblades something that i wanted in the list? How about Warders? In a few cases i discovered that the list was better suited for SoTN, when i simply considered the Northkin Elder over the SS Elder. This gave me access to free upkeeps which is really nice for many casters. It also gave me the option of switching in bears. The opposite was true as well. Some lists i had planned to run in SotN were better suited if i tweaked them a bit and ran them in BoH. Most importantly perhaps was that many lists i had built in BoH that felt very lack luster all of a sudden got some extra free solos and that blew their potential wide open. Probably my favorite example is Madrak2 Dude spam:
conflictchamber.com/#c7201b_-0a4X9D5-6G6G0n0o0o0k0m0b0c0b0c
Trollbloods Army - 75 / 75 points
[Theme] Band of Heroes
(Madrak 2) Madrak Ironhide, World Ender [+28]
- Dire Troll Mauler [15]
- Earthborn Dire Troll [15]
Fell Caller Hero [0(5)]
Fell Caller Hero [0(5)]
Kriel Warriors (min) [7]
Kriel Warriors (max) [11]
Kriel Warriors (max) [11]
Krielstone Bearer & Stone Scribes (min) [6]
- Stone Scribe Elder [3]
Trollkin Fennblades (max) [15]
- Fennblade Officer and Drummer [0(5)]
Trollkin Fennblades (max) [15]
- Fennblade Officer and Drummer [5]
This list is skewed towards infantry, and it was possible to build a similar list before. It did get an extra 15 free points now though, and that allowed me to take some luxuries to make the list work better. A second Fell Caller makes for a lot smoother game play, and less vulnerability. An attachment to the stone allowed me to have an out against incorporeal models. And finally a third (though a min) unit of Warriors add another layer of meat wall that can not be ignored. The list asks the question "how much infantry can you kill before they get to you?" and these additions made the list go from "possibly playable" to "definitely worth exploring as an anti-infantry drop". Banes want no part of this list. The cryx player can certainly kill lots of infantry before the lines clash, but a single fennblade could kill like 10 banes and immediately even the odds. Denny in Ghost fleet can control the list with her feat and shooting, but can she get through it all before you can connect with the pirates? If you get there you can probably surf to the leader models and then RFP them, to prevent pirates from coming back. I do not know how this will actually play out, but it is very interesting to me.
Oh, and just think about the Khador match up. Killing Pikemen sounds like something your MAT 8 POW 12 weaponmaster fennblades can do with berserk and overtake, right? And do you REALLY want to play 10 marauders against this list? Granted that POW 12 weaponmasters do not mulch ARM 20 jacks super well, but there are a LOT of them, and how will the Khador player do on scenario?
Very interesting questions...
PS. this post does not even consider Madrak 1 after CID... That guy seems HAWT now