|
Post by tasadarthemadbear on Oct 14, 2017 8:05:54 GMT
Not sure how I could even fit a Wrastler in that list. If the Dracodile's points stay the same, I was thinking this:
75pt Disciples of Agony Theme Force Morghoul1 (+30) Dracodile (-37) Desert Hydra (-38) Max Croak Raiders (-17) Brute (-8) Min Beast Handlers (-5) Task Master (free) Total: 105pts
|
|
demonic
Junior Strategist
Posts: 649
|
Post by demonic on Oct 14, 2017 8:40:04 GMT
yeah, trolling collosals on the board is hilarious to do. However, I've always found that, unless you are trolls, colossals don't earn their points. To me, they are a big target that can be taken out in 1 turn by focus firing with a single unit half their price. Once they are off the board, you are then 30pts gone with a huge gaping hole in your front line. The crazy cat lady list can give you a good example on this; Rhadiem with storm rager can way out threat just about any gargantuan out there. With his magical spear that is armor peircing, on the charge, it's MAT 10, PS 14, with 3 dice while you are on half armor. If you are, persay, armor 20, that brings you down to armor 10, leaving him with a +4 damage roll. Even with 50 boxes, his 1 hit deals, on average, 13 damage to your garg, not including his following mount attack. His cost? 9 points, plus he gives all ferox the dodge ability. Considering how wide the base is for a garg, he is likely to get targeted by multiple units in one turn, and when rhadeim has already taken out an average of 13 boxes with a single attack from a 9 point model, you can now attack with something like Molik Karn, but lets use something less expensive like a max unit of praetorian swordsmen + UA. on a basic turn, just the swordsmen would be able to automatically lay in 20 damage, but with the UA things get a little more fun as you mini-feat and give them an added die on top of their weapon master and a boosted charge, making each of their first rolls PS 9 + 5 dice, equalling an average of 4 damage per swordsmen to reach somewhere around 40 damage on your 1 garg that has already received 13 damage from Rhadiem. While Rhadiem and the swordsmen cost a total of 26 pts (including the UA) they just turned your 30+ pt model into mince meat with ease. When you include the fact that the cat lady list includes 2 full ferox units as well, this isn't even a trade, it's just spending a turn clearing out your noteworthy models.
|
|
granor
Junior Strategist
Posts: 353
|
Post by granor on Oct 14, 2017 11:21:01 GMT
a max unit of praetorian swordsmen + UA. on a basic turn, just the swordsmen would be able to automatically lay in 20 damage, but with the UA things get a little more fun as you mini-feat and give them an added die on top of their weapon master and a boosted charge, making each of their first rolls PS 9 + 5 dice,. Swordsmen are not weaponmasters
|
|
cassus
Junior Strategist
Posts: 156
|
Post by cassus on Oct 14, 2017 12:17:44 GMT
a max unit of praetorian swordsmen + UA. on a basic turn, just the swordsmen would be able to automatically lay in 20 damage, but with the UA things get a little more fun as you mini-feat and give them an added die on top of their weapon master and a boosted charge, making each of their first rolls PS 9 + 5 dice,. Swordsmen are not weaponmasters They are effectively weapon masters on their minifeat turn.
|
|
granor
Junior Strategist
Posts: 353
|
Post by granor on Oct 14, 2017 14:14:26 GMT
Swordsmen are not weaponmasters They are effectively weapon masters on their minifeat turn. Yes but the post called out 5 dice they do not get 5 dice only 4
|
|
|
Post by zarduhasslefrau on Oct 14, 2017 14:38:11 GMT
The crazy cat lady list can give you a good example on this; Rhadiem with storm rager can way out threat just about any gargantuan out there. With his magical spear that is armor peircing, on the charge, it's MAT 10, PS 14, with 3 dice while you are on half armor. If you are, persay, armor 20, that brings you down to armor 10, leaving him with a +4 damage roll. Even with 50 boxes, his 1 hit deals, on average, 13 damage to your garg, not including his following mount attack. His cost? 9 points, plus he gives all ferox the dodge ability. Considering how wide the base is for a garg, he is likely to get targeted by multiple units in one turn, and when rhadeim has already taken out an average of 13 boxes with a single attack from a 9 point model, you can now attack with something like Molik Karn, but lets use something less expensive like a max unit of praetorian swordsmen + UA. on a basic turn, just the swordsmen would be able to automatically lay in 20 damage, but with the UA things get a little more fun as you mini-feat and give them an added die on top of their weapon master and a boosted charge, making each of their first rolls PS 9 + 5 dice, equalling an average of 4 damage per swordsmen to reach somewhere around 40 damage on your 1 garg that has already received 13 damage from Rhadiem. While Rhadiem and the swordsmen cost a total of 26 pts (including the UA) they just turned your 30+ pt model into mince meat with ease. When you include the fact that the cat lady list includes 2 full ferox units as well, this isn't even a trade, it's just spending a turn clearing out your noteworthy models. Rhadeim's mount attack won't make much of an impact to a gargantuan as it's not armour piercing and it won't have 3 dice since if Rhadeim charged, the mount's attack won't be boosted and storm rager doesn't add to the strength. Also i don't think it's that easy to fit 10 small bases around a Huge base after Rhadeim has attacked (even if he has repositioned away) and as previously mentioned, it's only 4 dice and not 5. That's also assuming the dracodile or hydra hasn't taken out some models in the previous turn or blinded them. You'd probably be better off using heavies to take out the gargantuan.
|
|
|
Post by gobber on Oct 14, 2017 17:45:43 GMT
Dracodile dropped a point in CID, so if you really want to run the two together... Morghoul1 [+30] Dracodile [36] Hydra [38] Wrastler [16] Min paingivers [5] Shamblers [10]
|
|
demonic
Junior Strategist
Posts: 649
|
Post by demonic on Oct 14, 2017 18:26:55 GMT
just looked, praetorian swordsmen are not weaponmasters. However, they can use combo strike, which gives them the same +3 effect as if they were for the hit on the charge, giving them the same damage output I listed x.x; I keep mixing up swordsmen and exemplars -_- The mount attack of Rhadeim was meant to "nickel and dime" on him, meaning it may only get off one or two damage if you're lucky. It's the initial charge that does an average of 13 damage on a 20 armor unit, which does have armor piercing, added strength, magical, and 3 dice. As for fitting 10 small bases around a huge base, that's actually rather easy when you have pathfinder on the charge and +2 speed from a Tycom, along with +1 speed from Mak2, who can revive her fallen warrior models Adding in something like blind allows me to add in Mak2's feat, as we are now going after the most ideal situation. That makes their base roll, before blind, 16, after blind, 12, and the dracodile's def to melee is? Now lets consider if he did kill a few swordsmen... Mak2 gives them vengeance ^-^ thanks for the free damage -_-; And what are you going to be aiming at while facing the crazy cat lady list, the frigg'n 1 unit of swordsmen or the kitties that are zone clearing all of your other units, or combine attack threating your garg x.x; considering what's being said I'm going to put up the basic includes to a crazy cat lady list... Mak2 -Molik Karn -Agonizer -Shaman (before Masters of War drop. new lists are being made now that don't include shaman) Tyrant Rhadeim Praetorian Ferox x2 Willbreaker From there, it's highly customizable. The idea is to give the Ferox tough and deliver them as fast as possible. The agonizer makes it painfully difficult to remove the Ferox that are engaging everything, especially while they are tough and Mak2 is sitting on 3 or so focus every turn. From here you can design a list for assassination OR scenario rather easily. This list fell out of favor due to it not fitting into the Winds of Death theme, which can easily accommodate 2 derp turtles that will clear and hold zones, especially when it's being controlled by fatty. Thanks to the increase of tough hand outs, however, Mak2 double kitty is getting a relook inside the Masters of War theme.
|
|
|
Post by gobber on Oct 14, 2017 19:10:36 GMT
And your opponent will make everything that easy for you by not bringing an agonizer or attempting to screen for it... If Rhadeim charges rather than pouncing you don't out-threat the Dracodile's spray. He's a great target for blinds because he can't shake.
Anyways back to Disciples of Agony: Preventing all the above is however the reason I'm pretty sure a single gargant is most often going to work out a bit better: screening for them is pretty important. The dracodile probably wants more amphibious doodz around with that support animus. There's also a strong argument for bringing rush in the list instead of or in addition to rage. [Insert Gargant]+gladiator+wrastler is a good starting place. If running the mammoth, bring a splatter boar as well.
Doing doublegargossals successfully probably requires a stronger defensive feat than morg1's (maybe naaresh or xekaar?); the primary examples of casters that do well that I can think of are doomy3, ragnor, stryker1, brad, helynna (who does triple) etc.
|
|
|
Post by tasadarthemadbear on Oct 14, 2017 19:27:11 GMT
With the price reduction of the Dracodile, I can fit Xekaar and a Blind Walker instead.
75pt Disciples of Agony Theme Force Xekaar1 (+31) Dracodile (-36) Desert Hydra (-38) Blind Walker (-10) Max Croak Raiders (-17) Min Beast Handlers (-5) Task Master (free) Total: 106pts
Max Raiders should be able to screen them both, right? I dont, feel comfortable taking Xekaar in this list with out either a Walker or Marketh.
|
|
|
Post by gobber on Oct 14, 2017 19:47:32 GMT
Hehehehe since the raiders are immune to corrosion both your gargants can target them to spray through clouds and whatnot with relative impunity (AD and reposition help) or just line up better sprays. Your arc node has eyeless sight to further ignore cloudwalls, and can shield guard for your gargants. Definitely worth trying out.
|
|
demonic
Junior Strategist
Posts: 649
|
Post by demonic on Oct 14, 2017 19:59:11 GMT
After punching the math, if you were to play your dracodile recklessly (the difference in threat is minimal but assault does let drac out threat Rhadiem), in a dracodile x Rhadiem stand off, because of blind, he'd barely be able to kill Rhadiem before he got off the charge. It's not the stat alteration that gets him (hitting def 10 when you are at 4 mat isn't much of an issue), it's the fact that he can't charge and must forfeit his movement or combat action. It would be best to engage him before bringing in rhadiem, forcing him to focus on other units the turn before rhadiem charges in. When you have the desert hydra covering the holes, you'd be forced to send in something a bit tanky to take him out. I'd recommend removing the Hydra first if you were looking to take out a Dracodile + Hydra list, or simply ignore them and waterfall onto the opponent's caster. Crazy Cat Lady list is made to double flank, meaning he couldn't blind both units of cats. You focus on the cats, Molik Karn assassinates, you focus on Molik Karn, the cats assassinate, that's kind of how it works.
---
That being said, Dracodile looks like he'd be a GREAT choice for a DoA list. His ability to blind so many enemies at once is supreme. He also has 4 melee attacks that each have 2 inches on them. When he gets into the thick of it, he also has snacking for all 4 melee attacks, which will keep him a live for an extra turn or two. Thanks to all of his free charging, he's also rather fury friendly. Pathfinder on a Garg is also really nice since their base always hits something x.x;
|
|
|
Post by tasadarthemadbear on Oct 15, 2017 1:31:41 GMT
Ya, the Dracodile will probably be the first colossal or gargantuan i get. I want to try several different DoA lusts with him. The croak raiders being immune to corrosion is why i thought they would work well in the double draco hydra list. I'll almost certainly leave them in even when I drop the hydra.
|
|
|
Post by jagius021 on Oct 15, 2017 4:07:56 GMT
As for fitting 10 small bases around a huge base, that's actually rather easy when you have pathfinder on the charge and +2 speed from a Tycom, along with +1 speed from Mak2, who can revive her fallen warrior models I THINK that tycom only gives +2 when making a full advance, which is different from running or charging (pg 30). So his speed buff is useful for when in shield wall, walking up to shoot, and walking up to melee.
|
|
demonic
Junior Strategist
Posts: 649
|
Post by demonic on Oct 15, 2017 6:49:42 GMT
*cough* allow me to explain x.x;
because 10 small bases makes quite a large ring, you generally leave a small gap and double up as much as possible. Unfortunately, this is not entirely possible with the swordsmen, as their range is only 1 inch, making it highly difficult to target inbetween bases and still have reach. Due to this, you have as many charge as possible, then make a full advance with the others, where the +2 speed from the tycom suddenly comes in handy, as they can navigate quite far with 9 inches of free movement (include the additional inch from Mak2). It takes awhile to get comfortable with, but with the Tycom, you should be able to get at least 6 on the charge and the rest a navigation spot where they can still deal some damage. You have to remember, my first estimate of 40 boxes was based on only 1 swing, it did not include their second swing. With the correct caster and support at their back, a full unit of swordsmen can take down just about any singular unit, especially if it's already injured. The issue is that, well, the amount of damage for my original calculation involved them being weaponmasters, as I mistook a few rules from the other faction I play (Menoth). However, it just forced me to combo attack instead of singular swing attacks, upping the average damage back up to somewhere around 40, that calculation being done on an armor 20 model. Now, per-say, the armor 20 model was hit with parasite, decreasing it's armor by 3, the total damage would increase by 3 per swordsmen... If it was under Xerxis1's feat turn, the same thing would happen. I only used Mak2 calculations, who increases the likelihood of the delivery system, not the damage output. Swordsmen are only not taken often because they have no staying power. With only 13 def, any model with above 6 mat or rat will shred them; they also lack the ability to withstand even mediocre blast damage. Karax, which are cheeper and can contest a zone longer, are an easy replacement to help with our costly solos and support models.
|
|