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Post by sand20go on Sept 25, 2017 20:47:36 GMT
So long time lurkers, first time posters will know I have been on a BIG Vlad2 kick (with loud Chris Davies list). Really good and fun and a great all comers list.
Its "main" problem really is how it deals with dude spam when that dude spam has some anti shooting tech. The match ups I have felt on my heels include Coven+Banes, Trencher theme (original CID), and Grymkin dudes with the stealth arcana. In all cases it is hard for the rifle corp to do enough work on the dudes to stop hard hitters from getting to the MOW/Conquest and eating too many of them. Not "impossible" but hard.
As lurkers will also know - I have been less than happy with finding a good "second list" that does what I want to get done.
So I go to the peanut gallery with an idea.
Vlad2: Swap out Joe, the RC, and the Rockets (boo) for Full outriders, Bad Santa and then the Tinker. This would allow me to further create havoc for ranged shots (sad ghost fleet and Hallowmen) while giving me possibilities of feating some hand of fated outriders into something juicy. It provides a way of dealing wtih stealth and dug in and to an extent Coven's feat. It isn't ENTIRELY a dudes be gone list but should provide, I think, enough to help. Outriders WOULD be dead weight in, for example, amon spam or Grymkin's beast theme but even there I think they get some work done against the swarm and then can start working to flank/contest/etc.
Vlad1: Here I think is the pairing with WGK w/9 rockets (and probably cheap jugger/Maurader spam). Something like
vlad1: 2 juggers 2 Maurader; a Kodiak
Min WGI+UA+3 rockets (x2)
Min Rifles +3 rockets
Joe
mortar
Seems a highly legit pairing to me.
one possible varient (which I am LOATH to do because of how good it is) is to downgrade the conquest to say Ruin (to remove upkeeps) and a Jugger and then drop bad santa & the Tinker. If my math is right that means a unit of doomies to put additional assassination pressure right off the bat. I also think highly legit if your opponent just has Blast is go get a Demolisher in there so they can assail up the board turn 1 and be girded on turn 1.
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Post by smoothcriminal on Sept 25, 2017 23:58:57 GMT
The original Vlad2 dudes be gone back in mk2 dudespam era had Outriders, WGRC, doomies and fangs with Behemoth.
Since Outriders and WGRC are already done the only thing to try is taking doomies instead of elims as secondary feat targets to mows.
The one other thing to try is switch WGRC to WGI for those sprays. You can even feat on spraying dudes and unlike Outriders it will help them hit.
I wouldn't drop Conquest because he lays covering fire and isn't bad against infantry.
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Post by thebuoyancyofwater on Sept 26, 2017 6:35:19 GMT
Try nyss hunters with Valachev instead of the rifle corps. Still provide some shooting but have a much bigger melee impact and are better feat targets.
Cheers,
Dave
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Post by borderprince on Sept 26, 2017 8:58:48 GMT
So long time lurkers, first time posters will know I have been on a BIG Vlad2 kick (with loud Chris Davies list). Really good and fun and a great all comers list. Its "main" problem really is how it deals with dude spam when that dude spam has some anti shooting tech. The match ups I have felt on my heels include Coven+Banes, Trencher theme (original CID), and Grymkin dudes with the stealth arcana. In all cases it is hard for the rifle corp to do enough work on the dudes to stop hard hitters from getting to the MOW/Conquest and eating too many of them. Not "impossible" but hard. As lurkers will also know - I have been less than happy with finding a good "second list" that does what I want to get done. I get the impression from the post that you're trying to modify the Vlad2 to cover the problem match-ups, rather than use the second list to do so. Is that right? If so, what do you want the second list to do? For Vlad1 in WGK, I've enjoyed this: Vlad1 -Juggernaut x2 -Marauder x3 Max WGI+UA(free)+2 rockets x2 Joe Gun Carriage. The feat gives the potential for a nasty alpha with the jacks, combined with the gun carriage. WGI are brutal at close range (POW14 CRAs are great under S&P, so are the sprays) and the reposition is really useful. I've tried dropping the rockets, paying for the UAs and adding 2 mortars, but they weren't accurate enough for me. I'm considering going with one free field gun and one free mortar though. |
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Post by sand20go on Sept 26, 2017 13:02:28 GMT
So long time lurkers, first time posters will know I have been on a BIG Vlad2 kick (with loud Chris Davies list). Really good and fun and a great all comers list. Its "main" problem really is how it deals with dude spam when that dude spam has some anti shooting tech. The match ups I have felt on my heels include Coven+Banes, Trencher theme (original CID), and Grymkin dudes with the stealth arcana. In all cases it is hard for the rifle corp to do enough work on the dudes to stop hard hitters from getting to the MOW/Conquest and eating too many of them. Not "impossible" but hard. As lurkers will also know - I have been less than happy with finding a good "second list" that does what I want to get done. I get the impression from the post that you're trying to modify the Vlad2 to cover the problem match-ups, rather than use the second list to do so. Is that right? If so, what do you want the second list to do? For Vlad1 in WGK, I've enjoyed this: Vlad1 -Juggernaut x2 -Marauder x3 Max WGI+UA(free)+2 rockets x2 Joe Gun Carriage. The feat gives the potential for a nasty alpha with the jacks, combined with the gun carriage. WGI are brutal at close range (POW14 CRAs are great under S&P, so are the sprays) and the reposition is really useful. I've tried dropping the rockets, paying for the UAs and adding 2 mortars, but they weren't accurate enough for me. I'm considering going with one free field gun and one free mortar though. Your right. The idea is to increase the viability of the Vlad2 list into things like dug in Trenchers or stealthty grymkin. Not entirely be good but get back to 50/50. It will still do fine against most of the things it currently does fine against (lowish to medish count bricks) - lose the rockets and the big CRA but pick up faster stuff and intriguing feat target if a MoW or 2 can't actually do things. It also should do decent with HoF into, for example, Amon Spam. He can either take the shot(s) from the Conquest or sing passage and then deal with a bunch of peh peh sprays to work down his jacks. He then has to deal with the Ponies which with proper positioning means a bunch of the spam will deal with fated, Hand of Fated MoWs and possibly even Connie. That feels "strictly" better. The Vlad1 list is thus designed (9 rockets under Hand of Fate and still 5 jacks to benefit from feat) for things like new Kraye or a LOT of Khador mirrors. I lose (some) of the power in the Vlad2 list but gain it back (and more) with S&P and 9 rockets shots. |
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Post by sand20go on Sept 26, 2017 13:07:45 GMT
Try nyss hunters with Valachev instead of the rifle corps. Still provide some shooting but have a much bigger melee impact and are better feat targets. Cheers, Dave Problem I see Dave is that while it covers the trencher match up really well it still leaves me wide open to the Grymkin swarm, the Grymkin (stealth) Arcana and Coven's feat. But possibly just accept that the Vlad2 list can't cover those (well) and find something else that can work there (OW1?) and tech exclusively for the two tricky factions ;-) |
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Post by thebuoyancyofwater on Sept 26, 2017 13:38:22 GMT
Yeah they won't help against those factions. Against Coven and the stealth Arcana, remember that feated nyss with Valachev have a 14" walking melee threat in that list (or an 18" ranged threat against stealth)! Combined with Arcane Might and Hand of fate, they can easily walk into the Coven's feat and Murder things easily. I'm actually lookng at an Old Witch1 Jaws of the Wolf list for Cryx and Grymkin  Will be testing it tomorrow! Will report back in my thread once tested. Cheers, Dave |
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Post by smoothcriminal on Sept 26, 2017 14:08:59 GMT
Nyss actually counter stealth quite well. 7 spd + 3 zephyr + 5 range = 15" threat, that's longer than most melee things they will be shooting.
If you want specifically to beat stealth infantry mortars actually work well since their nemesis-Satyxis aren't played much currently. Their range also allows them to shoot beyond Coven feat.
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Post by auraco on Sept 26, 2017 15:28:34 GMT
Yeah they won't help against those factions. Against Coven and the stealth Arcana, remember that feated nyss with Valachev have a 14" walking melee threat in that list (or an 18" ranged threat against stealth)! Combined with Arcane Might and Hand of fate, they can easily walk into the Coven's feat and Murder things easily. I'm actually lookng at an Old Witch1 Jaws of the Wolf list for Cryx and Grymkin Will be testing it tomorrow! Will report back in my thread once tested. Cheers, Dave What's the exact old witch list you have in mind? I haven't looked at her much, any inspiration would be welcome. |
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Post by sand20go on Sept 26, 2017 15:59:48 GMT
Yeah they won't help against those factions. Against Coven and the stealth Arcana, remember that feated nyss with Valachev have a 14" walking melee threat in that list (or an 18" ranged threat against stealth)! Combined with Arcane Might and Hand of fate, they can easily walk into the Coven's feat and Murder things easily. I'm actually lookng at an Old Witch1 Jaws of the Wolf list for Cryx and Grymkin Will be testing it tomorrow! Will report back in my thread once tested. Cheers, Dave What's the exact old witch list you have in mind? I haven't looked at her much, any inspiration would be welcome. Probably legion of steel. Feels like between Feat and Murder of Crows you can keep weaponmaster problems to a minimum. You can use Weald Secrets to solve terrain issues on turns you are not charging. Iron Flesh is, of course, very good. And charging weaponmasters are, well, charging weapon masters. You can use gallows, though "bad" to at least THREATEN to pull stuff into killing range for your pikes. Probably bring kodiak(s) to help with some venting of steam to provide prowl for witch. Not great but it is what it is if she can't find a forest (for some reason - there are usually a lot on the table). Obviously between avatar and feat and cull souls is is "not good" to put down an infantry based army. you don't have shooting and Witch herself has to deal, for example, with grymkin swarms in the scenario game but I think I can live with that all things being considered. Just have to work out whether I can get all my Iron Fang toys in with her having "just" 18 BG points. |
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Post by thebuoyancyofwater on Sept 26, 2017 17:31:00 GMT
What's the exact old witch list you have in mind? I haven't looked at her much, any inspiration would be welcome. Probably legion of steel. Feels like between Feat and Murder of Crows you can keep weaponmaster problems to a minimum. You can use Weald Secrets to solve terrain issues on turns you are not charging. Iron Flesh is, of course, very good. And charging weaponmasters are, well, charging weapon masters. You can use gallows, though "bad" to at least THREATEN to pull stuff into killing range for your pikes. Probably bring kodiak(s) to help with some venting of steam to provide prowl for witch. Not great but it is what it is if she can't find a forest (for some reason - there are usually a lot on the table). Obviously between avatar and feat and cull souls is is "not good" to put down an infantry based army. you don't have shooting and Witch herself has to deal, for example, with grymkin swarms in the scenario game but I think I can live with that all things being considered. Just have to work out whether I can get all my Iron Fang toys in with her having "just" 18 BG points. Well, that's pretty much exactly not what I'm trying tomorrow  Here's my planned list: Jaws of the WolfOld Witch1 +18 -Scrapjack -Kodiak -13 -Spriggan -19 Forge Seer -0 -Behemoth -25 Forge Seer -0 Widowmaker Marksman -4 Kayazy Assassins (Max) -15 -Underboss -4 Kayazy Eliminators -5 Widowmaker Scouts -8 Behemoth for the magical guns, plus a spriggan to lay down flares to de-stealth either gremlin swarms or, possibly Denny herself. Oh, Behemoth gets hunter thanks to Weald Secrets too. Kodiak is more useful against more infantry based armies while still hitting hard enough for a lot of the Cryx jacks and Grymkin beasts. Also, with apparition, heavy boiler and pathfinder it gets places! Widowmakers get round Dark Host armour issues if needed, plus ignore tough and the like in Grymkin. A large assassin unit is ideal for Iron Flesh if needed (and get round tough) and eliminators are good for contesting or controlling zones. No idea how it'll play out, but trying it tomorrow! Cheers, Dave |
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Post by sand20go on Sept 26, 2017 19:21:37 GMT
Probably legion of steel. Feels like between Feat and Murder of Crows you can keep weaponmaster problems to a minimum. You can use Weald Secrets to solve terrain issues on turns you are not charging. Iron Flesh is, of course, very good. And charging weaponmasters are, well, charging weapon masters. You can use gallows, though "bad" to at least THREATEN to pull stuff into killing range for your pikes. Probably bring kodiak(s) to help with some venting of steam to provide prowl for witch. Not great but it is what it is if she can't find a forest (for some reason - there are usually a lot on the table). Obviously between avatar and feat and cull souls is is "not good" to put down an infantry based army. you don't have shooting and Witch herself has to deal, for example, with grymkin swarms in the scenario game but I think I can live with that all things being considered. Just have to work out whether I can get all my Iron Fang toys in with her having "just" 18 BG points. Well, that's pretty much exactly not what I'm trying tomorrow Here's my planned list: Jaws of the WolfOld Witch1 +18 -Scrapjack -Kodiak -13 -Spriggan -19 Forge Seer -0 -Behemoth -25 Forge Seer -0 Widowmaker Marksman -4 Kayazy Assassins (Max) -15 -Underboss -4 Kayazy Eliminators -5 Widowmaker Scouts -8 Behemoth for the magical guns, plus a spriggan to lay down flares to de-stealth either gremlin swarms or, possibly Denny herself. Oh, Behemoth gets hunter thanks to Weald Secrets too. Kodiak is more useful against more infantry based armies while still hitting hard enough for a lot of the Cryx jacks and Grymkin beasts. Also, with apparition, heavy boiler and pathfinder it gets places! Widowmakers get round Dark Host armour issues if needed, plus ignore tough and the like in Grymkin. A large assassin unit is ideal for Iron Flesh if needed (and get round tough) and eliminators are good for contesting or controlling zones. No idea how it'll play out, but trying it tomorrow! Cheers, Dave Let us know but you have to anticipate that the Grymkin beasts could be ARM 21 - especially if you have fed em any kayazy. I think that is the challenge for Witch in Jaws into them. And especially since Hordes and if you don't kill it completely they just heal up Spirit and murderate you. |
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Post by thebuoyancyofwater on Sept 27, 2017 6:37:03 GMT
Let us know but you have to anticipate that the Grymkin beasts could be ARM 21 - especially if you have fed em any kayazy. I think that is the challenge for Witch in Jaws into them. And especially since Hordes and if you don't kill it completely they just heal up Spirit and murderate you. Yeah that is a concern for sure. If they change the theme to allow a Merc solo it might be a case of adding Ragman. This'd probably be through reversing a change I made, adding mechaniks and Ragman while dropping the kodiak to a juggernaut and the assassins to a minimum unit. Will see how this list goes first of all though! If not, I've got an idea with Sorscha2 and one with Strakhov1, or I'll fall back on my Irusk2 Jaws of the Wolf list. Or, see what themes do in the next couple of days! Cheers, Dave |
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Post by smoothcriminal on Sept 27, 2017 11:58:29 GMT
On a side note why don't you convert the Vlad list to mow theme?
Vlad
-Conquest
Shockies + UA + free kovnik
Nyss + Valachev
Leaves you with 22 points to fill in. You can even take Bailoch or Orin.
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Post by sand20go on Sept 27, 2017 13:13:48 GMT
On a side note why don't you convert the Vlad list to mow theme? Vlad -Conquest Shockies + UA + free kovnik Nyss + Valachev Leaves you with 22 points to fill in. You can even take Bailoch or Orin. Probably will once the themes actually drop and we see what we can and can't take. I dojo'ed the list that you had above and added in Drakhuns because: A) They are kool B) The idea of feating on two of them and killing casters from 15 inches away was hysterical. |
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Will be testing it tomorrow! Will report back in my thread once tested.
Here's my planned list: