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Post by Netherby on Sept 21, 2017 13:16:42 GMT
If you only want to run reavers, then Old Witch 2 and Zerkova 1 have to be the best options. Both can provide good protection for them on the way in. Only Witch2 buffs their damage and accuracy on top of keeping them alive on the way in though.
Other choices can help with damage and accuracy or survival, but none of the other options really do all of those things at the same time.
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Post by Soul Samurai on Sept 22, 2017 20:20:13 GMT
Does Strakhov's old stealthy cloud wall still have game? Like, put Occultation on a unit of Outriders, then throw clouds on them with a Ternion, and have then run up ahead of the Doomreavers?
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Post by tapecrawler on Sept 23, 2017 0:43:02 GMT
I've been thinking a lot about a Strakhov1 list of Doom Reavers and Kodiaks where the Kodiaks use vent steam to hide until they can close with the enemy jacks, then two hits and a throw to the Doom Reavers to finish off the jack. Probably a pipe dream, but it's fun to think about.
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Post by mcdermott on Sept 23, 2017 0:48:46 GMT
Might be a thing with Harkevich of all people too. Mobility to help the jacks keep up, reposition to vent then move out of the cloud for a legitimate cloud wall. Its not like hark has much to offer infantry on his spell list anyway, so you dont get much more self sufficient than doomies.
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Post by tapecrawler on Sept 23, 2017 0:55:11 GMT
I was thinking about Harkevich while writing that post to be honest. He does seem to bring a lot to the table and it would be fun to play around with. I just need to get my second Kodiak assembled and finish painting Harkevich. 😜
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Post by Armchair Warrior on Sept 23, 2017 15:23:45 GMT
I got my first game in with the theme this Thursday. My list with Old Witch 2, 3 units of Doomreavers (1 with UA), Fenris, a min unit of Outriders, Double Koldun Lords, 3 Marauders and a Juggernaut. My opponent played Vyros 2 with a crap ton of jacks. My thoughts after that game:
- The Old Witch 2's 18" Windstorm radius plus double Koldun Lords will allow you to deliver most of your doom reavers. Even this set-up doesn't make you immune to shooting (and you can't position the Kolduns carelessly or they can stand 10" away and shoot.) - 3 units of doom reavers is really a lot of hitting power. - If you want a lot of hitting power, two units is better than 3. Better coverage, and you can sacrifice some pawn to bait out your opponent by running, ending 2" away, and forcing him to engage and kill your pawns by closing distance. - You have the opportunity to use your doom reavers and their advance deploy to put on a ton of scenario pressure. - Pre-measuring is a thing, so the apparition trick isn't tricking anyone. My opponent just measured 13" as my threat range. - If your caster didn't bring pathfinder, then Fenris is a MUST for list building if you're playing SR 2017 properly.
If you want to bring 1 or 2 units of Doomreavers, and then supplement with max outriders / double outriders, I think your options for caster builds is opened up somewhat but will matchup dependent. Except against Vyros 2 (as I learned) and a few other casters, you can take a primary unit of Doomreavers and hide them behind a forest or wall, apparition over the wall (yeah, that works with a standard wall template...so cool) or into the forest, and get work done. You can screen the other unit behind the spray ponies who can get 18" up the board anyway (with decent defensive stats).
I don't own a 2nd unit of ponies (although I am seriously considering taking that plunge). Also, and this is somewhat of a personal issue, I either assembled/painted and/or purchased/assembled/painted my 3rd - 8th unit of doomreavers about 2 months before MK 2 closed out. I never got a game in with Mad Dogs. It took about a year to get over some odd emotional cocktail of resentment and rage.
So, I don't want to drop just 2 units. I want 3 - 5. Really, if you're going to play doomreavers, then PLAY THE DAMN DOOMREAVERS. So, I think you've got 2 options in this set up - bring 5 units with a caster who can't deliver them well, or 3+ (season to taste) with those that offer some support.
Let's pick a caster who can't protect and deliver the doomreavers very well. I'd include the Vlad 1/3, the Butchers, etc. in this group. If you're going this route, I feel like you're probably (probably...) limited to dropping your list into an opponent who didn't bring a dedicated gunline. If you pull this off, then fine, live the dream. If you want to try your luck against a gunline, then I think you HAVE to bring at least 4 and preferably 5 units of doomreavers just to have the dedicated redundancy. Yes, yes, I really do want to drop Butcher 2 and live the dream, but I'm going to pack head and pick my opponent.
Imagine going up against a Cygnar gunline, or Vlad rocket spam. If the question you're asking is "can you kill my 3 units of doomreavers before I get to you", then answer is going to be yes. Yes! Maybe if you have 24-30...it's a different deal depending on terrain and the gunline in question.
For casters who offer some level of protection, I think you've got more options, but personally I still want the redundancy. Take Sorscha 1. If the question is, "can you kill 30 DEF 15 doomreavers before I get to you" the answer is probably no, even for a dedicated gunline. (OMG, that sounds...balls fun, especially against a troop heavy opponent. Oh, oh so juicy).
Vlad 2... Between terrain and dropping a couple of Wind Blasts, you might be able to disrupt enough shooting to deliver enough doomreavers, especially since the first 4-6 of them are going to ball-on super serum scum. With apparition on the feat targets, you're looking at 16" threat range, MAT 10, DEF 16, ARM 17, POW 15 berserk weapon masters. (Keep in mind, though, if you were dropping into a Vlad 1 mirror you're going to need 4 of those dudes to wipe out a Khador heavy).
Now, at the high end of things, I think we've got casters like Irusk 2, Zerkova 1, and Old Witch 2. Zerk's cloud walls are obvious, but I don't quite have the hang of them yet and somehow Zerkova 1 is not my jam. I do, however, love the Supreme Kommandant!
Irusk 2... OK, this is sweet sweet love. In my OW 2 game, I made roughly my share of tough rolls, but my knocked down doomreavers were almost always trivially removed before my turn without disrupting my opponents plans. Irusk 2 just solves so many issues with Solid Ground. And Tactician... And Artifice of Deviation... Adding that plus terrain, you're going to deliver the doomreavers. Also, Fenris can't be everywhere at once, so with an 8" command range you're pathfinder targets are constrained.
So...can we talk a bit about caster rankings and "optimal" builds? For Rankings, I'm going to go with a simple ranking.
Tier 1 - reliably deliver doomreavers and do useful things for them. Tier 2 - synergize well with doomreavers, but delivery is inconsistent. Tier 3 - other casters who you'd like to take, but not as good as Tier 2
Who do you think is in Tier 1 vs. 2 vs. 3, and how would you build your list differently by caster?
Tier 1
Old Witch 2. Others have commented on her toolkit, and I agree. I think she wants 3 units, but can support 4. Her jack support is so good, and she's so easily assassinated in melee, that I feel like you need at least 4 jacks to screen her. Fenris a must.
Irusk 2. Ultimate toolkit. Bring as many doomreavers as you want. You probably want a unit of Outriders for Battle Lust. The question for me here is the jack package... does he sacrifice a unit of doomreavers or maxing Outriders to bring the Conquest? (So, something like 4X reavers, Outriders, Conquest, and free stuff). Really, what's the jack package look like? I hate wasting Energizer and Fire for Effect. Is an outrider worth tapping with FFE? Like an uber-HOF, but on one dude? Hmmm... Thoughts?
Tier 2
Sorscha 1. The Fog of War and Stationary on a Stick are...well...really good. I'm between 4-5 units of Doomreavers, depending on the jack package, and once again Fenris is a musts. 5X DRs, Fenris, and 3X Marauders is conveniently 75 points. If you want Connie then you're dropping down to 4 units, but then you can max out the UAs if you don't want to waste clock on positioning. I don't think you have room for Outriders in her army.
Vlad 2. Wind blast plus a strong feat turn are key here for delivering your doomreavers. I think he really wants a max unit of Outriders to maximize HOF. Fenris is a must for pathfinder. If you minimize jack points that gives you Fenris, Max Outriders, 3X doomreavers and a unit of ternion (or more jacks). So, for jacks... am I crazy to think Kodiak + Drago? Drago for DEF 13, or DEF 15 vs. shooting with the Ternion. Assail is a thing (not a great thing, but a thing). If you don't like Drago, sub in Devastator and just keep slam attacking until you reach the enemy caster. The Kodiak is there to burn Vlad's rubber for the +2 ARM and STR. For the Vlad 2 fans, is that still a thing?
Zerkova 1. OK, cloud walls. Go for it. I don't play her enough to know what she wants in this theme.
Strakhov 1. Does he make the cut? Is the feat enough? You don't *need* Fenris, but you might *want* Fenris. 4X Doomreavers, Fenris, a Grolar (for Superiority), a Destroyer (for Overrun, to deliver the Grolar), and a Marauder (because I have 10 points left and want a good ranged jack for Overrun). Everyone runs turn 1. See how it works out on turn 2.
Tier 3.
Butcher 2. I think Butcher 1 is just not going to be playable in this theme, despite how sexy 5d6 doomies look on paper. Everything is too slow and will die before delivery. But, Butcher 2 can at least speed up his jacks, and himself, and the feat makes whatever is left just so rocking deadly. Again, Fenris is a must, so I've got 4X doomreavers, Fenris, a Grolar (oh, sweet double packman love), Ruin, a Ternion (for clouds). Buuuut... maybe you can drop Fenris and 2 units of DRa and just take more jacks, and use the DRs as support? Naw...at that point you're probably way better off just taking him in Jaws.
Malakov 2? I haven't played him but on paper Veil of Mists and Prowl on 1 unit might be a thing.
Others...
Strakhov 2. I think this is only viable if they let casters put upkeeps on the Doomreavers.
Karchev. I just don't see how this works, other than as something cute. If they let *any Graylord model* take the 2" apparition move, I'd take the theme and a unit of Outriders. Outriders screen jacks, clear charge lanes, and get the early apparition, and late game apparition on Karchev would be just sooo good.
Sorscha 2. Yeah, no. No delivery system. I don't see it.
Irusk 1. I don't think the feat is enough for me. What does he possibly do that I2 doesn't do better for your DRs?
Harkevich. No, the repositioning Kodiak wall isn't going to be a theme. The doomreavers don't want to play that far back.
Butcher 3. This would be hysterical. But not a good option. Butcher does nothing for the DRs, and they do nothing for him.
Koslov. Hmmm... +2 SPD and Unyeilding on the feat is probably not enough to make this work. This might be an option with just a couple of units of DRs and Outriders for screening, but I think there are better things for Koslov to do.
Zerkova 2. I think she'll love the theme but not for the doomreavers. Take double outriders if you own them (I don't) and bring 1 or 2 units of doomreavers for support and Sacrificial Lamb.
OW 1. I don't get her, and I certainly don't get her in this theme.
Vlad 3. Dash is not enough. Wrong theme for this caster.
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Post by smoothcriminal on Sept 23, 2017 18:58:09 GMT
Who can deliver doomies? OW2, Z1. Not seeing Irusks here. Doomies cost too much for tough to be good.
Who can make outriders work (and deliver doomies behind them)? Strakhov2, Vlads, Zerkova2, maybe Irusk1.
Who can make jacks+doomies work? Malakov2, OW1.
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Post by Armchair Warrior on Sept 23, 2017 19:59:44 GMT
Who can deliver doomies? OW2, Z1. Not seeing Irusks here. Doomies cost too much for tough to be good. Who can make outriders work (and deliver doomies behind them)? Strakhov2, Vlads, Zerkova2, maybe Irusk1. Who can make jacks+doomies work? Malakov2, OW1. How are you not seeing Irusk 2? It's not just tough. It's DEF 17, no knockdown, move through your own dudes and ignore the forest tough.
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Post by smoothcriminal on Sept 23, 2017 20:48:49 GMT
Cover will only cover some limited amount of dudes, especially now after it's been nerfed. Opponent will just shoot the ones without cover. So we're left with tough that doesn't work that good with 2pt per dude.
And then there's the issue of Irusk making fangs pow 13 weaponmaster with heaps of bonuses on top, why even bother with doomies when you take him?
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Post by Soul Samurai on Sept 23, 2017 21:01:19 GMT
Is an outrider worth tapping with FFE? Like an uber-HOF, but on one dude? I don't think FFE works on Outrider sprays as I don't think they count as ranged attacks?
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Post by Armchair Warrior on Sept 23, 2017 21:08:51 GMT
Is an outrider worth tapping with FFE? Like an uber-HOF, but on one dude? I don't think FFE works on Outrider sprays as I don't think they count as ranged attacks? Funny. I always think of them as guns, but you're right. Now you need a good FFE target... so I think I'm down with Connie and 30 Doomreavers plus some free stuff.
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Post by Soul Samurai on Sept 24, 2017 5:04:42 GMT
I don't think FFE works on Outrider sprays as I don't think they count as ranged attacks? Funny. I always think of them as guns, but you're right. Now you need a good FFE target... so I think I'm down with Connie and 30 Doomreavers plus some free stuff. How about a Rager? A double-boosted POW 15 (without blowing up) is nothing to sneeze at, and there's nothing wrong with bringing a shield guard. Or a Decimator; with two shots he can make use of both FFE and the free Power Up focus, add one more and that's two double-boosted POW 15s.
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Post by skathrex on Sept 25, 2017 9:42:29 GMT
I agree with smoothcriminal on Irusk2. He loosed to much of his kit for Doomreavers. I feel similar about him in LoS. Tactican is not really needed and AoD has a huge problem in that so many models cirumvent Def. Cygnar? Leaps! Circle? Sprays! Cryx? Ignore, Sprays or Corosion! there is just to much that kills them to rely on tough.
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wendan
Junior Strategist
Posts: 785
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Post by wendan on Sept 25, 2017 11:23:47 GMT
Dedicated gunlines are still not great, but bringing five units of doomies, even against a mixed arms list, is still pretty good! Especially if B2 is backing you up!
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Post by skathrex on Sept 25, 2017 12:10:21 GMT
Dedicated gunlines are still not great, but bringing five units of doomies, even against a mixed arms list, is still pretty good! Especially if B2 is backing you up! That brought something else to my mind. Imo dedicated Gunlines are on the decline at the moment. So maybe there is hope on the horizon for Reavers?
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