zich
Junior Strategist
Posts: 690
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Post by zich on Sept 19, 2017 15:31:08 GMT
Greetings my fellow Skorne!
We need to talk. Specifically about Cryx, the old and new bane of the meta. First came Ghost Fleet, to which we mostly respond with Winds. It is a good response, so good in fact that I haven't faced Ghost Fleet since I have Winds in my pairing. Not that there was a lack of opponents that brought it. Then came Dark Host and made matters needlessly complicated. Its matchup into Winds, especially the double Reiver variant, is very strong. I only played into it twice, but each game lead to the same observations:
1) The attrition could honestly be worse. I've only played into Coven Host and it could well be worse into Shade2 Host. Banes do eventually die though and I'm not sure Shade2's feat adds enough momentum to prevent it. Morghoul2 has proven invaluable in his ability to both control the enemy via his feat and contribute personally to the attrition. And Banes hate Mortality, especially the Warriors. 2) Scenario is a disaster. Cavalry with Coven's control feat is a scenario nightmare that scores very fast and contests even faster. The matchup is probably better with a second turtle (I only had one up until very recently) which I still have to test. 3) Time is an issue. Working around Coven's feat takes time and killing a bunch of Banes takes time. I haven't had clock issues like that in a long time and infantry spam is very common around here. More practice will help here though.
Now all of that isn't so bad. It's an uphill struggle, but still. The issue I foresee is with the emergence of Black Industries. In short, I really don't want to drop guns into that list. That is why I think we need a new solution.
There are some ideas that come to my mind. In particular I've been thinking about (and this is in part due to the inspiration provided by some posters here, so kudos!) Mordikaar (in Exhalted) and Rasheth (Winds with 2x Turtle or also Exhalted). I think the general game plan needs to be assassination threat. I don't think we can win a fair attrition into Cryx anymore. I'll elaborate a bit more later or tomorrow. But most importantly I'd like to hear your thoughts!
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Post by benjamini on Sept 19, 2017 19:16:13 GMT
Last time I played Skorne in a tournament I had a pretty rough time dealing with Dark Host. Curious to hear what your thoughts are. Skorne is not my primary faction, so I'm not sure how much I can contribute beyond an interest.
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psyllus
Junior Strategist
Posts: 119
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Post by psyllus on Sept 20, 2017 0:52:43 GMT
I've been playing Zaal1 with a Mammoth into Cryx lately, with two units of infantry to keep the Banes off the Mammoth. Against the Coven, I try for some early scatters onto the Coven; not too bad of odds with 3-4 shots. During their feat turn, I just layer my infantry to let them kill half or so of it and set me up for my feat turn. I push hard with my Swordsmen to get them onto the Coven. Under feat plus mini-feat plus Last Stand, one attack from a Swordsman can one-shot a Witch through focus and Sidestep usually gives me plenty of ways to get that attack. After one Witch goes down, it's just cleanup.
My Zaal1 list will change once the Immortals theme is released, but until then I'm running him with Karax Keltari and Swordsman plus UA.
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Post by Cryptix on Sept 20, 2017 1:58:54 GMT
I just drop my Morghoul2 out of theme with Molik Karn, double Brigand, and Siege Turtle gunline into Host.
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skormedlover87
Junior Strategist
Desperately searching for days off to game...
Posts: 517
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Post by skormedlover87 on Sept 20, 2017 7:32:51 GMT
Try Rasheth in WoD with a couple Sentinels and Marketh. If you drop scathers everywhere his tech is limited.
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zich
Junior Strategist
Posts: 690
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Post by zich on Sept 20, 2017 8:05:52 GMT
Thanks for the thoughts so far. I'd like to add my own now as I found the opportunity, then get into some discussion on yours. This is one of my current favorites for "lists to build into Cryx": conflictchamber.com/#c9201b4t6U6S4C4C6u6v6v5Rft5Rft5RftExhalted (as I think it will work) - 74 / 75 points (Mordikaar 1) Void Seer Mordikaar [+29] - Archidon [10] - Cyclops Raider [9] - Cyclops Shaman [8] - Cyclops Shaman [8] Ancestral Guardian [5] Hakaar [0] Void Spirit [0] Void Spirit [0] Extoller Soulward [3] Extoller Soulward [3] Immortals (max) [15] - Extoller Advocate [4] Immortals (max) [15] - Extoller Advocate [4] Immortals (max) [15] - Extoller Advocate [4] Now what's the plan here? Well that depends on my opponent's list: DennyFleet: Shove Immortals forward and try not to lose too much stuff. When Denny comes forward to feat the Void Spirits need to be within "charge->kill something->port to Denny->whack her" range. That is the difficult part of the plan, the rest is rather simple. The Shamans with Guidance can hit her with >50% chance and soften her up. Essence Blast should finish her off. Ideally off an Archidon, but a Void Spirit will have to do. If Denny stays back it'll be a massive grind that I think I can win. There's no RfP here, but a bunch of attacks. And without Denny's feat, Immortals should do well into Pirates. The key is keeping the Void Spirits, Soulwards and Shamans safe. Will take a lot of practice. Black Industries: POW13 charges kill Cryx jacks. 'nuff said. Dark Host: Similar plan as with Denny. If I can get one Witch dead the game should tip in my favor. Immortals should trade rather evenly with Banes. It should be quite the grind.
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zich
Junior Strategist
Posts: 690
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Post by zich on Sept 20, 2017 8:19:03 GMT
skormedlover87: Rasheth has been a consideration (will get into that soon). What exactly do you want to accomplish with the Sentries? They could be good for control into Fleet, but I'm not seeing what they should do into Bane Riders and especially Warjacks. Cryptix: I've been playing Morghoul2 in Winds with the following list: conflictchamber.com/#c9201b_-0k3Z6U6S4C4C6N6v6vcvgg6p6F6p6F6WhVSkorne Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Winds of Death (Morghoul 2) Lord Assassin Morghoul [+29] - Archidon [10] - Cyclops Raider [9] - Cyclops Shaman [8] - Cyclops Shaman [8] - Aptimus Marketh [0(5)] Extoller Soulward [3] Extoller Soulward [3] Mortitheurge Willbreaker [0(4)] Venator Dakar [0(4)] Venator Reivers (max) [15] - Venator Reiver Officer & Standard [4] Venator Reivers (max) [15] - Venator Reiver Officer & Standard [4] Venator Slingers (min) [8] Siege Animantarax [17] And it's a struggle. What do you think are the advantages of a non-theme build? In particular, I'm not sure how it has an easier time with Bane Cav or in the future Carapace Jacks. I do want to try out the double Turtle version as the Turtle has been invaluable so far. psyllus: I like the idea of Zaal1 into Cryx. Some thoughts though. Mammoth scatters do dice-10 to the Witches if they have any Focus on the ball. That seems very low. Pretoreans into Host seems like a good idea. Have you considered Keltarii? If the plan is getting to the Coven itself, they might be able to do it. This whole plan could become even better if Extollers make it into the Pretorean theme. I can also see how you would deal with BI, but what about DennyFleet? This list seems highly vulnerable to it. benjamini: Interest is also appreciated.
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zich
Junior Strategist
Posts: 690
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Post by zich on Sept 20, 2017 8:44:04 GMT
Rasheth I'd build like this (yes, I know, how very creative of me): conflictchamber.com/#c9201b_-0k6I6S4C4C4C6v6vcvgg5U6X6XhVhVSkorne Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Winds of Death (Rasheth 1) Dominar Rasheth [+28] - Cyclops Raider [9] - Cyclops Shaman [8] - Cyclops Shaman [8] - Cyclops Shaman [8] Extoller Soulward [0(3)] Extoller Soulward [3] Mortitheurge Willbreaker [0(4)] Venator Dakar [0(4)] Paingiver Beast Handlers (max) [7] Venator Slingers (max) [13] Venator Slingers (max) [13] Siege Animantarax [17] Siege Animantarax [17] Game plans as follows: DennyFleet: Castigate not only keeps Fatty safe, but should also help the Turtles to not get Parasited to death. Assuming good positioning, that is. Shamans and Arced Breaths keep Denny honest, though not as much as the Mordikaar list would. There's once again no RfP, but with that many Arc Nodes and Ghost Shots it should be possible to wipe out entire units. CovenHost: Same plan as with Morghoul2, with the added threat of Arced Breaths onto Coven, but without the control or personal attrition contribution that Morghoul brings. BI: I have no plan.
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Post by elladan52 on Sept 20, 2017 15:29:13 GMT
Firing from the hip, a Hexeris1 list seems like it could be a decent drop into both. Hellfire for ghost fleet, feat for dark host.
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zich
Junior Strategist
Posts: 690
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Post by zich on Sept 20, 2017 15:44:21 GMT
I'm not so sure. Hellfire is on Hexy2 and Bane Cav don't kill each other reliably on Hexy1's Feat.
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Post by elladan52 on Sept 20, 2017 16:59:21 GMT
I'm not so sure. Hellfire is on Hexy2 and Bane Cav don't kill each other reliably on Hexy1's Feat. That's what I get for firing from the hip!
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skormedlover87
Junior Strategist
Desperately searching for days off to game...
Posts: 517
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Post by skormedlover87 on Sept 20, 2017 18:05:55 GMT
Against Cryx jacks a Sentinel will do plenty of damage in melee. With Rasheth the gun is deadly even into undead. Mostly he's there to help control infantry and give you a little forward scenario life. Against bane cavalry, you should send the derp turtles, the natural predator of cav. I was thinking something like this:
Rasheth Marketh free Shaman x2 Sentinel
Derp turtle x2 Max Slingers Max Reivers +UA Min Handlers Dakar free Soulward free
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psyllus
Junior Strategist
Posts: 119
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Post by psyllus on Sept 21, 2017 5:01:10 GMT
psyllus : I like the idea of Zaal1 into Cryx. Some thoughts though. Mammoth scatters do dice-10 to the Witches if they have any Focus on the ball. That seems very low. Pretoreans into Host seems like a good idea. Have you considered Keltarii? If the plan is getting to the Coven itself, they might be able to do it. This whole plan could become even better if Extollers make it into the Pretorean theme. I can also see how you would deal with BI, but what about DennyFleet? This list seems highly vulnerable to it. Yes, Keltarii. That's what I meant when I typed Karax. They're awesome at sneaking their way into melee with the Coven. No one in my area plays Ghostfleet, so I unfortunately have zero experience playing into it.
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zich
Junior Strategist
Posts: 690
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Post by zich on Sept 21, 2017 12:34:57 GMT
elladan52 Hexy is still a good idea. I personally prefer Hexy2, but now that I think again on your idea, I'm warming up to the idea of Hexy1. Bane Riders don't kill each other reliably on Hexy's feat (5 to hit, 10 to kill), but with Parasite they almost do in 50% of cases (5 to hit, 7 to kill). Ghost Fleet is more of an issue as Pirates need 8s to hit each other. For that reason I'll prefer Hexy2 for the near future, probably just in Winds with 2Turtles. I'd like to try Warhost with him, but it doesn't have any Extollers because reason. Additonally, I think he'll fare even worse into CovenHost than Morghoul2. skormedlover87 I see. That makes a lot more sense with Rasheth than with Morghoul2 I guess. Not sure about using Shamans without Snipe though. Or about the effectiveness of Scather into Bane Riders. psyllus I might try something similar with Ferox, once the Preatorean theme is out. Here's to hoping for Take Down.
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didder
Junior Strategist
Posts: 166
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Post by didder on Sept 21, 2017 13:13:14 GMT
The math of Hexy1's feat for enemy models hitting each other isn't often as bad as it seems. Remember, they added free strike immunity to his feat and the back strike bonus changed in MK3 so you don't have start your activation in the back anymore to get it.
Of course, feat hits still won't always be benefitting from back strike, which definitely matters, but if you feat with Hexy1, I'd be really surprised if you couldn't engineer at least 2 back strikes for yourself with a whole 3" walk and wack.
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