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Post by asm0dai on Mar 16, 2017 9:39:32 GMT
Hello, tyrants. What would you recommend to use for the "current" Mak2 list? Is it worth taking swordsmen + UA + Morti (for "Tough") under her? Currently I'm trying different versions of this list: Skorne Army - 74 / 75 points (Makeda 2) Supreme Archdomina Makeda [+27] - Bronzeback Titan [18] - Titan Gladiator [15] - Titan Sentry [15] - Basilisk Krea [7] - Agonizer [6] Praetorian Swordsmen (max) [13] - Praetorian Swordsman Officer & Standard [4] Paingiver Beast Handlers (min) [5] Mortitheurge Willbreaker [4] Ogrun Bokur [5] Hakaar the Destroyer [7] Swamp Gobbers Bellows Crew [2] (there may be other choices - dropping Hakaar + Ogrun + Agonizer for some other heavy for example) But my "progress" with this list isn't good so far. For example, yesterday I was trying to fight Gunnbjorn list: Trollbloods Army - 75 / 75 points (Gunnbjorn 1) Captain Gunnbjorn [+28] - Dire Troll Bomber [19] - Dire Troll Mauler [15] - Dozer & Smigg [18] - Glacier King [35] Krielstone Bearer & Stone Scribes (max) [9] - Stone Scribe Elder [3] Janissa Stonetide [4] Well... I concedes the game on the round where I lost everything except Makeda and PGBH :-) I did some damage to trolls of course - but this welps-centred kung-fu made me cry So what can you recommend? When there is a possibility to came across the beast/jack-heavy list - should I try to get as much as possible from Mak2 or it will be more wise to switch to Xerxis2 leaving Mak2 for more warriors-oriented enemies? Or there are more powerful choices now instead of Mak2/Xerxis2?
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Post by fragpalm on Mar 30, 2017 15:51:45 GMT
Hakaar with Mak2 is not the worst idea, but his slow speed might hinder his potential somewhat, despite Dash and Righteous Vengeance. A better bet might be Rhadeim as a Storm Rager target. Super fast, lots of tricks, and that armour piercing weapon is brutal. This is coming from a guy that's only played Mak2 a couple times since the errata, mind you.
I also think you have to consider what the list is meant to do, and that will resolve whether you need both the Agonizer and the Krea in the list. My vote is just go for a Krea, as that will help most of your army get to their targets unscathed (the Swordsmen will need it!), and seems to bolster Mak2's style somewhat. Think about Molik with her as well, as he has incredible threat.
There are plenty of options for busting armour in Skorne. It is good practice to fight fire with fire when it comes to Trolls; bring something fast that hits hard. (Doomie2 can rival our speed on feat, though.)
There are many options that are more explosive than Makeda2.
Xerxis2 is my favourite choice for hurting lists with lots of heavies, as his boost to threat ranges is widespread and his feat plus his buffs bring tremendous punishment to armoured models.
I've used Makeda1 for cracking armour as well. An Enraged Molik supported by jackhammers will outright remove most models from the table. Same can be said about the Hydra.
Morghoul1 and 2, Hexy1, Zaal1 and Rasheth can bring down armoured models pretty well. I hear Naaresh, Xeekar and Zaadesh can do it well enough, though I haven't had the chance to try them.
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Post by Ereshkigal on Mar 30, 2017 16:52:04 GMT
Makeda 2 needs cats.
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demonic
Junior Strategist
Posts: 649
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Post by demonic on Mar 30, 2017 17:03:11 GMT
I noticed the difference in dates but still decided to reply. asm0dai- find some way to fit Karax in that list, UA unnecessary. The current favorite way to eliminate infantry is the use of AoE blasts. With even average rolls you'll be dealing with 3 or 4 knocked down or dead swordsmen a turn when their best moments is when they can swarm Khador 24 armor jacks and get an auto 2 damage a piece The Bronzeback is nice, but switch him with Molik Karn. When you consider the addition of side-step, his threat range jumps through the roof when missiling through to someone's caster. With weapon master, he's only dealing an average of 1 less than the bronzeback and gives Mak2 the ability to repo herself back 5 inches with his animus. Swamp Gobbers are an interesting choice, just remember that they are situational. There are several factions where cloud cover is a non-issue. Hakaar is a fierce weapon that becomes faster under the tutelage of Mak2. He REALLY becomes a weapon when under the affects of Storm Rager. Ogrun I might replace with Orin for the spell safety issue... Mak2 specializes in Warrior models so giving her an "additional heavy" is not really the way to go when you already have 3 + 2 support beasts to fury manage. If only her spells didn't specifically mention "faction warrior models" I'd probably use her much more than I currently do.
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skormedlover87
Junior Strategist
Desperately searching for days off to game...
Posts: 517
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Post by skormedlover87 on Mar 31, 2017 5:45:50 GMT
Here's what I'd go with. It's somewhat different from the initial list, but should do all the same things. Zaadesh is almost as good a spot for Storm Rager as Hakaar. The members of Legends aren't bad either.
War Room Army
Skorne - Makeda2Lor
Theme: No Theme Selected 75 / 75 Army
Supreme Archdomina Makeda - WB: +27 - Molik Karn - PC: 19 (Battlegroup Points Used: 19) - Titan Gladiator - PC: 15 (Battlegroup Points Used: 8) - Cyclops Brute - PC: 8 - Basilisk Krea - PC: 7
Tyrant Zaadesh - PC: 4 - Titan Gladiator - PC: 15 Mortitheurge Willbreaker - PC: 4
Praetorian Swordsmen - Leader & 9 Grunts: 13¡ - Praetorian Swordsman Officer & Standard - Officer & Standard: 4 Legends of Halaak - Valgesh, CIdaar & J'Deth: 8 Paingiver Beast Handlers - Leader & 3 Grunts: 5
---
GENERATED : 03/31/2017 00:43:30 BUILD ID : 2038.17-03-15
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Post by Ereshkigal on Mar 31, 2017 11:13:18 GMT
I'll give you two iterations of Makeda 2 that works really well:
(Makeda 2) Supreme Archdomina Makeda [+27] - Despoiler [19] - Molik Karn [19] Mortitheurge Willbreaker [4] Mortitheurge Willbreaker [4] Tyrant Rhadeim [9] Paingiver Beast Handlers (min) [5] Praetorian Ferox (max) [20] Praetorian Ferox (max) [20] Swamp Gobbers Bellows Crew [2]
(Makeda2) Supreme Archdomina Makeda [+27] - Despoiler [19] - Basilisk Krea [7] Paingiver Beast Handlers (min) [5] Legends of Halaak [8] Praetorian Ferox (max) [20] Praetorian Ferox (max) [20] Mortitheurge Willbreaker [4] Mortitheurge Willbreaker [4] Orin Midwinter [5] Tyrant Rhadeim [9]
I think the one with Molik Karn has a stronger assassination potential to be honest. Just remember to not use your fury to cast spell but to stay death your cats, and you are good to go. Before you start losing a cat, your opponent needs to take an average of 10 succesfull shots at them. And you have dodge to get out of range.
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demonic
Junior Strategist
Posts: 649
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Post by demonic on Mar 31, 2017 15:33:41 GMT
someone has Despoiler love x.x; Despoiler is too weak to be worth the points. His greatness comes when he's puking out void spirits with mordikaar. You should chop him up into pieces for 19 points worth of our much nastier beasts, such as an Aradus and aggy or 2 Cyclops. What is making those lists work so well is the Ferox; we have one of the best cav in the game, with stay death they become even nastier. Even the willbreakers could be free points for boosting up her battle group. (willbreakers are great for tough and giving you a free reroll on a hit, but good players will assassinate them the first chance they get)
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Post by Ereshkigal on Apr 2, 2017 22:01:16 GMT
You clearly don't know what you are talking about i think.
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demonic
Junior Strategist
Posts: 649
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Post by demonic on Apr 3, 2017 0:49:15 GMT
oh? Replace the despoiler with other things like I said and try a game. Then keep the despoiler in, get rid of the ferox and see what you can do against your local meta while using Mak2 ^-^ I used to have some serious despoiler love, but I quickly learned that his perfect placement also makes him the perfect target.
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Post by asm0dai on Apr 4, 2017 7:59:27 GMT
Thank you for answers! I was a little bit distracted from my topic by... erg... real life but I read everything. Thank you for ideas, everyone. Speaking about Despoiler - I, too, don't understand him. What's the idea? I have only one unit of Ferox so far (they are in painting at the moment) but I'm going to try them of course. 2demonic: speaking about Karax - you meant including them into the roster in addition to Swordsmen or as a replacement to them?
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Post by asm0dai on Apr 4, 2017 8:40:36 GMT
I think I will keep this list as the "core" for possible different builds for Mak2:
Skorne Army - 49 / 75 points
(Makeda 2) Supreme Archdomina Makeda [+27] - Basilisk Krea [7] - Molik Karn [19] - Titan Gladiator [15] - Titan Sentry [15] Mortitheurge Willbreaker [4] Paingiver Beast Handlers (min) [5] Praetorian Karax (max) [11]
From this point I can add:
- a full unit of Ferox and still have 6 points left for, say, Orin Midwinter. Everybody loves Ferox! - Bronzeback Titan for additional hitting power - in case we met some colossals/gargants. With 8 points left I can add... I dunno... "Legends of Halaak"? Or TCom + swamp gobbers? - a full unit of Swordsmen + UA. For 9 points left I can add some crazy choices like Orin + Saxxon, or Orin + Maximus, or Efaarit scouts, or Paingiver Bloodrunners.
Speaking about the Xerxis2 builds... I think there is mush less problems. Just "get all the heavies and throw them into the pot".
Any help, comments, ideas (especially about Mak2) - welcome!
PS: I know that Mak1 may be a better choice sometimes but I hope to get some knowledge with Mak2 first, to play, say, 10-15-20 games with her to get more or less "stable" list...
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Post by bennep on Apr 4, 2017 9:47:50 GMT
Despoiler pros: -free upkeep, leaving an extra fury for stay death -dark shroud fixes damage for the cats somewhat (boosted 12 or 14 is okay, but ultimately a little bit light for heavy cav) -animus in niche situations -likes boosted attacks from Mak2's feat (crit brutal on the tail, MAT fixer)
cons: -squishy -situational animus -in Ereshkigal's list he has no speed fixers, leaving his thread mediocre at best -only MAT 6 outside of feat turns
I'm going to try Despoiler, but in theory I really like what he brings to the Mak2 game.
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Post by Ereshkigal on Apr 4, 2017 11:40:55 GMT
The despoiler is a finisher piece (and the math behind the crit brutal makes it deal almost the same damage as a bronzeback btw, while providing better utility). You jam with your immortal cats (because of tough and 6 stay deaths per turn) until you can safely advance with despoiler and Molik on the back. You don't need speed because you have a wall of 11 immortal cats in front of you. Then when you want to commit you can either charge with it or RUN with it in position to apply dark shroud and make your Molik a murder machine or make cats hit at boosted p+s 16. The willbreakers are there to force your Molik out of control range after 2 side steps, give rerolls to it and tough to the cats. They can play back enough to being difficult to snipe behind a wall of large based, steady, cats. All the games i played with that list i won. The maximum number of dead models i had in a game i think it was 2 cats. But hey, don't take it from me... that list is the strongest skorne list for one of the best european competitive players (Jarle). www.courageofcaspia.com/2017/03/thoughts-on-current-meta.htmlp.s.: makeda 2 is the strongest competitive caster in skorne. p.p.s.: giving tough to cats is very important for 2 reasons. 1 - They are steady, so you will always roll for it. 2 - Since you will stay death 6 times per turn, when you roll a tough it's a spared fury or an extra stay death. If you happen to be lucky you could roll 2 or 3 tough in a stay death streak, demoralizing your opponent since he can't kill anything. And if you are not lucky, even the possibility of rolling a tough will make your opponent thinking twice before just taking ineffective pot shots at your cat wall.
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Post by fragpalm on Apr 4, 2017 12:27:07 GMT
The despoiler is a finisher piece (and the math behind the crit brutal makes it deal almost the same damage as a bronzeback btw, while providing better utility). You jam with your immortal cats (because of tough and 6 stay deaths per turn) until you can safely advance with despoiler and Molik on the back. You don't need speed because you have a wall of 11 immortal cats in front of you. Then when you want to commit you can either charge with it or RUN with it in position to apply dark shroud and make your Molik a murder machine or make cats hit at boosted p+s 16. The willbreakers are there to force your Molik out of control range after 2 side steps, give rerolls to it and tough to the cats. They can play back enough to being difficult to snipe behind a wall of large based, steady, cats. All the games i played with that list i won. The maximum number of dead models i had in a game i think it was 2 cats. But hey, don't take it from me... that list is the strongest skorne list for one of the best european competitive players (Jarle). www.courageofcaspia.com/2017/03/thoughts-on-current-meta.htmlp.s.: makeda 2 is the strongest competitive caster in skorne. p.p.s.: giving tough to cats is very important for 2 reasons. 1 - They are steady, so you will always roll for it. 2 - Since you will stay death 6 times per turn, when you roll a tough it's a spared fury or an extra stay death. If you happen to be lucky you could roll 2 or 3 tough in a stay death streak, demoralizing your opponent since he can't kill anything. And if you are not lucky, even the possibility of rolling a tough will make your opponent thinking twice before just taking ineffective pot shots at your cat wall. I play Makeda1 a decent amount, but I think I've only tried Mak2 twice since the errata. I get that Staying Death 5-6 times per turn is super strong, and her spell list is quite good, but I have a few qualms: Do you find spending fury to Stay Death leaves Makeda vulnerable to assassination from a vector you've overlooked? I see that having several turns to sandpaper heavies might help deal with armoured builds, but is the damage output too low to handle unexpected (list chicken, DC1) heavy spam? If so, do you use the list to angle for assassination, or restrict access to scenario? What do you pair with Makeda2? Armour cracking? A concrete answer to infantry spam? Can she answer Ghost Fleet, or is your second list geared for this?
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Post by Ereshkigal on Apr 4, 2017 13:05:55 GMT
1 - Usually not. Because in front of here there are so many large bases that is very difficult to reach hear in any way. 2 - It handles heavy spam quite well, better than you think. An average khador heavy can't kill a cat for example, the first time they miss a cat you are out of their melee range. Then every turn they have to eat the waterfall attack at p+s 14-16 boosted until you want to commit an heavy to remove it. That list is an attrition monster that can't be locked out from scenario and have many unexpected threat vectors (pounce, side steps, despoiler running into position to apply dark shroud where it's needed) 3 - I usually pair it with Rasheth winds of death to carpet bomb infantry lists and rfp lists (the real makeda 2 weakness). Sometimes i'll pair it with Makeda 1 with mammoth (same reasoning). Or with Zaadesh 2 to abuse the clouds against infantry/beasts and forget about rfp. I think Hexy 2 could work too.
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