boozy
Junior Strategist
Posts: 429
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Post by boozy on Sept 12, 2017 19:37:23 GMT
I'm not in the CID forums, but I've pulled down the CID list and played it.
Anyone else finding that the theme is too limited? For worker infantry, I've got Immortals, AGs, Hakaar, Extollers, and Void Spirits, the last of which have Skornergy. AGs, Hakaar and Extollers want souls, but Immortals want to keep theirs for the UA. All I got are PGBH, with a small unit size and FA 2.
Aside from that, it's beasts, which also don't help the soul issue.
I'd like to see a single unit of Praetorians, Venators, or Nihilators allowed. What does everyone else that's tried it think?
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Post by mbkplayer on Sept 12, 2017 22:27:05 GMT
Zaal 1 hands souls out to the guardians like candy. He can't redirect the stature spirits which is fine (they go to the shephers until he's full, THEN can go to the guardians). Seeing as I don't own Zaal 2, I've only seen good things with this theme. I didn't even have to change my list when it first dropped except to add Aptimus Marketh and 2 Void Spirits for free. The changes really filled the list out in a way that makes it really fun to play. The 2 ghosts get to be the front line, and the possible free upkeep/hex blast make a pretty big impact as well.
Zaal 1 -Aptimus Marketh (free) -Titan Sentry -Titan Sentry -Agonizer
Immortals -UA Immortals -UA Void Spirit x2 (free) Ancestral Guardian x3 Hakaar the Destroyer PGBH (min)
First turn, before theme dropped, I would kill half my beast handler unit just to get souls on the shepherds for the def buff on the way up since Sentries are there to shield guard Zaal and take hits. Feat fixes them for the turn they need to work, then its 6 attacks all boosted with Ornery and Death March for even more damage output. Void Spirits make a great front line I never knew I needed till I parked them in front of the heavies for added bubble wrap.
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boozy
Junior Strategist
Posts: 429
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Post by boozy on Sept 12, 2017 22:43:15 GMT
No doubt the theme functions fine with the Zaals, but I'm interested in how it works across a broader spectrum.
I run a Makeda2 list as a tinker project that I want to do in theme.
Makeda2 -Molik Karn -Soldier
-Immortals+UA(x2) -Swordsmen+UA(max)
-Hakaar -AG
Since there's only three living targets, there' Fury leftover for Dash,Deflection, or Storm Rager as desired. It's got great assassination, threat extenders and Pathfinder, and is a cheaper fun alternative to Ferox.
Those Praetorian souls help a lot. I've founf that outside of the Zaals, I can't fuel the soul collectors this theme wants to give you for free. A single unit of Karax, Swordsmen, or Slingers would add a great element to make Exalted work more broadly, and interesting variants.
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didder
Junior Strategist
Posts: 166
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Post by didder on Sept 12, 2017 23:06:57 GMT
It was definitely a big hang up to Zaal2 before the theme. He had a very significant soul deficiency. The theme definitely helps a lot, and there's maybe a few things you missed about how it works.
For example, with Transference, Zaal2 can boost the melee attacks of his immortals. That is way better than the reroll given by the Advocate. So, those advocates never really need more than a soul or two for grave wind or incorporeal, both of which aren't needed every turn. If your advocates we're gobbling up their whole five souls, it was probably a bit wasteful.
Another thing is that the way it was spoiled, Zaal2 gets a free soul to start out as well. If you Max out on all the soul gathering models, that's 8 free souls to start out. I call that a pretty solid remedy to the issue.
Zaal1 of course has virtually zero problem with soul economy since he needs none himself and very reliable fills up Hakaar and the 3 guardians.
In regards to death rage being weak, yes it is weak, but really only with the Zaals, who thankfully aren't the only warlocks to excel with this theme.
Xerxis1 can do a lot with this theme, and can get good use out of death rage. Def Ward works pretty well on immortals, his feat is fantastic on them, his battle plans are great on them too. And he can lurch a Tiberion really far up the board. His feat lasts the whole round, too, so the death rage punch on a beast will be a weapon master kiss goodbye.
Zaadesh2 is another who can get good use out of death rage. Not only is involiable resolve good on immortals, they might also be the best unit for his feat, being able to boost mat9 ps15 defensive strikes across 20 models. His feat lasts the whole round too, so a sentry can defensive strike, then retaliatory strike, then die and do a death rage smack. Lastly, his ashes clouds stack with grave wind for +4 def against living models
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boozy
Junior Strategist
Posts: 429
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Post by boozy on Sept 12, 2017 23:22:05 GMT
I get the Zaal application, and how the theme works well with other casters too. I saw the Arcane Assist Battle report the other day with Xerxis1, and was impressed by the theme with him. The Zaadesh2 combo also is appealing.
This doesn't change that the theme wants you to take soul-burning solos, and the Immortal UA wants to use his unit's own. To get the AGs and Extollers into a productive place(I prefer Hakaar and the Extollers to AGs) you need dead troopers. A single unit of chaff would go a long way towards making the theme work, and add room for spice.
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granor
Junior Strategist
Posts: 353
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Post by granor on Sept 13, 2017 1:14:17 GMT
My guess and this is a guess based on no info is the theme is going to get a new unit and maybe a new solo sometime. These additions may help with the soul issue
I have not played the theme but I was surprised the soul bonus was only one soul. I guess we will see once the themes drop how strong it is
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Post by illrede on Sept 13, 2017 1:39:49 GMT
My guess and this is a guess based on no info is the theme is going to get a new unit and maybe a new solo sometime. These additions may help with the soul issue I have not played the theme but I was surprised the soul bonus was only one soul. I guess we will see once the themes drop how strong it is Well I can comfortably say that Zaal2 pure Immortals isn't in a soul drought without the theme, so that can only be good. Only strongly Immortal list outside the Zaals I have deep familiarity with is Hexeris1 Vengeance-Spam with one Nihilator unit. Turn Nihilators into 3rd unit of Immortals that bring their own free AG and make poor use of Death March, I think it'd work out on a list level. Going to miss MAT9 Berserk, though.
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boozy
Junior Strategist
Posts: 429
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Post by boozy on Sept 13, 2017 2:27:00 GMT
I barely used Nihilators even back in MKII, and haven't touched them since. When there wad infantry and Tough was tough, they had a place. Now they still die to everything, remain POW 12 in a 'jack world, and have no AD/Pathfinder or other native tech. Morghoul3 and Hexy1 have nice tools for them, but they still lack targets. Parasite+Death March makes them considerable again, save they die to everything. Morghoul3 has Occultation+feat, but can't boost their POW or make the opponent take infantry. In the end, they are mostly overpriced souls that need help to do something.
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regleant
Junior Strategist
Sometimes things go right
Posts: 267
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Post by regleant on Sept 13, 2017 3:35:35 GMT
I run a Makeda2 list as a tinker project that I want to do in theme. Makeda2 -Molik Karn -Soldier -Immortals+UA(x2) -Swordsmen+UA(max) -Hakaar -AG How are you getting those Swordsmen in theme? Did I miss a CID update? Because my Zaal1 list ran Immortals and Swordsmen and destroyed the world!
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boozy
Junior Strategist
Posts: 429
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Post by boozy on Sept 13, 2017 3:44:37 GMT
"How are you getting those Swordsmen in theme? Did I miss a CID update? Because my Zaal1 list ran Immortals and Swordsmen and destroyed the world!" I'm not, this is out of theme. My opinion after running the Exalted theme without a Zaal is that it wants you to take Exalted and Extoller solos but doesn't provide the souls to power them. Other themes allow for one unit/solo of ______, and I think this theme could really benefit from a single unit of soul fodder. The Makeda2 list I've played has been fun and functional (though I haven't taken it to any high level play yet). I think that the issue of lacking souls would apply to any warlock outside the Zaals that would use this theme. Allowing a single unit of something would go a long way towards powering up soul-collecting models.
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Post by illrede on Sept 13, 2017 3:46:20 GMT
I barely used Nihilators even back in MKII, and haven't touched them since. When there wad infantry and Tough was tough, they had a place. Now they still die to everything, remain POW 12 in a 'jack world, and have no AD/Pathfinder or other native tech. Morghoul3 and Hexy1 have nice tools for them, but they still lack targets. Parasite+Death March makes them considerable again, save they die to everything. Morghoul3 has Occultation+feat, but can't boost their POW or make the opponent take infantry. In the end, they are mostly overpriced souls that need help to do something. They're not a heavy-lifting unit in that list, that's the Immortals. But they'd have vengeance, share target priority with immortals while being slightly harder to hit, and they tend to trade up even after people are finished shooting up a vengeance unit. Given the choice I put them in there instead of a 3rd Immortal unit. Wouldn't have done 2 Nihilator, 1 Immortal though.
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boozy
Junior Strategist
Posts: 429
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Post by boozy on Sept 13, 2017 4:36:01 GMT
13/13 Tough is far worse the Immortals with 11/17+ concealment. Without AD or any other tech, they just get blasted off the table.
Not trying to pop off about Nihilators, was more interested in feedback on the Exalted theme. I just don't see any place for them in faction at the moment. They are priced like Immortals, do less against 'jacks and 'beasts than Swordsmen, come with no native delivery tech, and only kill models that rarely see the table nowadays.
I dig your role for them with Vengeance, but I get the same thing from Swordsmen under Makeda2 with two auto-plinks, sidestep or Power Swell charge, and Pathfinder on the charge. Almost any addition to Nihilators can make them worthwhile; put AD on them and +1SPD and I'd love to see those psychopaths frenzy charge into enemy skirmishers. Even Steady would make me look again.
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Post by oranjejus on Sept 14, 2017 2:59:19 GMT
Zaal 1 hands souls out to the guardians like candy. He can't redirect the stature spirits which is fine (they go to the shephers until he's full, THEN can go to the guardians). He should be able to - exactly the same wording for Direct Spirits (same rule) as the one on Zaal2. So he hands out souls like candy, _and_ can redirect the statue spirits. - OJ
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skormedlover87
Junior Strategist
Desperately searching for days off to game...
Posts: 517
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Post by skormedlover87 on Sept 14, 2017 18:50:18 GMT
So going through casters who might want in on this theme, aside from the Zaals (this might as well be named "Zaal's Theme").
Morghoul3: Can deliver multiple units between Occultation and Mirage. The feat is also hilarious and effective on AGs and Hakaar. He doesn't do much else though.
Zaadesh2: Fixes most of their weaknesses, improves their strengths. I can't tell you how excited I am for defensive strike/retributive strike/death rage. Almost an all sentries all the time list.
Makeda2: Welp, I guess this version of her gets to cast spells? Cause she's going to hit Deflection till lines cross and Dash every turn. Seems boring and underpowered as a list though.
Xerxis1: The feat has already been mentioned and that seems good. Maximize AGs and beasts with out of activation attacks for that. Probably very soul strapped though. Does nothing for accuracy, but hits like a truck strapped to a freight train.
Mordikaar: This gets weird. Hollow and Essence Blast are both skornegestic within this list. Hollow could go on a unit without UA I suppose, but then you'll be hard pressed to fuel AGs and Hakaar. Void spirits are problematic as well as they deny souls. Revive works fine and nearly your whole army laughs at terrain, but not your support. The feat is probably just strong enough to limit damage to vengeance units, but not totally discourage attacks.
X2: There's nothing he has that this theme won't like. Though he's not doing scads for them either.
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didder
Junior Strategist
Posts: 166
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Post by didder on Sept 14, 2017 21:11:01 GMT
Rasheth ain't bad at all in Immortals. He's just better in winds probably. We might find that's not true. Like Xerxis, he makes them hit very hard, and even does something for accuracy. There's not much more than the debuffs happening. I mean, his corrosion clouds arent' bad with immortals necessarily, but they don't really fear infantry much unless they're weapon masters.
I'll be trying Rasheth with them
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