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Post by killermuppet on Sept 7, 2017 22:31:29 GMT
I can see Demo Corps niche in the Man-O-War scheme of things being Gargossal killers. Bombardiers are looking to be INF killers. Shocks and Tankers are there to jam and kill stuff. Why not give Demo Corp the job of being the "Hammer" of the forces(and yes I meant to due the pun). As many of us have pointed out the Demo Corps was suppose to be the Siege portion of the Man-O-War force. Give them the power to crack some skulls along with armor. They are almost glass cannons, but the problem is they are very expensive glass cannons. If this is the play style that PP envisions for them then lets make sure they are worth the points we have to pay for them.
Just my 2cp, -Da Muppet
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Post by mcdermott on Sept 7, 2017 22:34:53 GMT
Itd definitely need a rework. Crit freeze does nothing to massive bases or structures.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Sept 7, 2017 22:43:55 GMT
Gargant killer is an awful role. Very niche and limited. There is a reason why jack/ beast specific abilities rarely catch on. And huge sized stuff is even more niche.
Bombardiers are awful infantry killers if that is their role.
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Post by Blargaliscious on Sept 7, 2017 23:43:28 GMT
[SNIP] So, let's see some suggestions! Remember the basic concepts of the squad: melee attack specialists, the weapon is a weapon that uses cold to increase damage, and Man-O-Wars. OK, I'll start the festivities, you guys tell me where I'm wrong. Man-O-War Demolition Corps (corrected) priced at 9/15. SPD: 4 STR: 9 MAT: 7 RAT: 5 DEF: 10 ARM: 16 CMD: 7 Hit Points: 8 40mm Base Ice Maul RNG: 2 POW: 7 P+S: 16 Point Cost: 9/15 points Leader & GruntsRapid Strike - This model can make one additional melee attack each combat action. Repairable - This model can be targeted with Repair special actions as if it were a construct model. Ice MaulCritical Freeze - On a critical hit, the model hit becomes stationary for one round unless it has Immunity: Cold. <<< --- >>> Man-O-War Demolition Corps (corrected) priced at 10/16. SPD: 4 STR: 9 MAT: 7 RAT: 5 DEF: 10 ARM: 16 CMD: 7 Hit Points: 8 40mm Base Ice Maul RNG: 2 POW: 7 P+S: 16 Point Cost: 10/16 points Leader & Grunts
Overtake - When this model destroys one or more enemy models with a basic melee attack during its Combat Action, after the attack is resolved it can immediately advance up to 1" Rapid Strike - This model can make one additional melee attack each combat action. Repairable - This model can be targeted with Repair special actions as if it were a construct model. Ice Maul
Critical Freeze - On a critical hit, the model hit becomes stationary for one round unless it has Immunity: Cold. <<< --- >>> Man-O-War Demolition Corps Officer CA (potential): SPD: 4 STR: 9 MAT: 8 RAT: 6 DEF: 10 ARM: 16 CMD: 9 Hit Points: 8 Officer 40mm Base Ice Maul RNG: 2 POW: 7 P+S: 16 Point Cost: 4 points ( ) Attachment (Man-O-War Demolition Corps)- This attachment can be added to a Man-O-War Demolition Corps unit. OfficerBlow This Place – This model can use Blow This Place once per game at any time during the unit’s activation. This activation, models in this unit become immune to blast damage and gain Detonator. (When a model with Detonator directly hits and boxes an enemy model with a ranged or melee attack, center a 3" AOE on the boxed model, then remove that model from play. Models in the AOE are hit and suffer an unboostable POW 8 magical blast damage roll.) Granted: Relentless Charge - While this model is in formation, models in its unit gain Pathfinder when the unit is advancing as part of a charge. Granted: Shatter - While this model is in formation, models in this unit gain an additional damage die against stationary models. Overtake - When this model destroys one or more enemy models with a basic melee attack during its Combat Action, after the attack is resolved it can immediately advance up to 1" (Only if using the 10/16 point Demo Corps unit.)Rapid Strike - This model can make one additional melee attack each combat action. Repairable – This model can be targeted with Repair special actions as if it were a construct model. Tactics: Wall of Steel – Models in this unit gain Wall of Steel. (While this model is B2B with one or more models in its unit, it gains +2 ARM.) Ice Maul
Critical Freeze - On a critical hit, the model hit becomes stationary for one round unless it has Immunity: Cold.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Sept 7, 2017 23:46:12 GMT
Man wouldn't it be funny if PP suggested Vengeance?
That would be so funny.
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Post by ozvelpoon on Sept 8, 2017 0:10:01 GMT
To be honest Blarg I would take these in a second... which is why I think PP will be more conservative. I try and think along the lines of "What is the worst they could be and still be taken?". Would they see play if they stayed 9/15 and gained Cleave? Would they see play if they went to 10/16 and got Rapid Strike? I would prefer the 16p option overall.
Same question for the UA; would you take it if you only got 3 of those abilities? What about 2? I think you have one ability to many on the UA so which are you least attached to?
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Post by mcdermott on Sept 8, 2017 2:05:58 GMT
There's 0 chance a UA is going to be giving out 2 granteds, a tactics, and a minifeat for 4 points.
edit: there's also 0 chance a unit is going to cost as much as the other two MoW, be 2-3 pow higher and gain 1 more ability than them.
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Post by Blargaliscious on Sept 8, 2017 2:20:06 GMT
To be honest Blarg I would take these in a second... which is why I think PP will be more conservative. I try and think along the lines of "What is the worst they could be and still be taken?". Would they see play if they stayed 9/15 and gained Cleave? Would they see play if they went to 10/16 and got Rapid Strike? I would prefer the 16p option overall. You like the 16 point version. Noted. My opinion doesn't matter - I just simply put up a suggestion to get discussion started. What do you think should be removed? What did I do wrong? Do you have a better idea? You - and everyone else - either detail changes you think would be appropriate or put up your own suggestion.
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Post by Blargaliscious on Sept 8, 2017 2:23:00 GMT
There's 0 chance a UA is going to be giving out 2 granteds, a tactics, and a minifeat for 4 points. edit: there's also 0 chance a unit is going to cost as much as the other two MoW, be 2-3 pow higher and gain 1 more ability than them. Don't tell me the odds! - Han Solo If I am wrong, don't tell me I am wrong, tell me how I am wrong. Be detailed. Make suggestions.
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Post by mcdermott on Sept 8, 2017 2:44:28 GMT
Ok, look at the templates of Bombardiers and Shocktroopers.
They have 1 ability on the base unit, CRA and shieldwall respectively. From there you've got higher armor, or higher range on the non melee weapon (shield cannon for 17 arm instead of 16, or range on the bombard cannon) The weapons either have higher reach, or a crit effect, and the units are 1 point more expensive than demo corps.
Now look at the template of the Shocktrooper UA. 2 tactics that are situational and reactive, existing solely to support their ability to use the base shield wall ability and fulfill their role as a meat wall, and a granted ability that lets them use both weapons in the same round despite the fact that their rat isn't great and they aren't TOO terribly likely to land many charges.
Look at the template of the bombardier in CID. one granted ability that lets them maneuver into concealment/cover during the advance A minifeat that lets them get some extra shots off Another granted ability that lets them fulfill their role as a ranged unit in the face of jammers without losing volume of ranged attacks.
So for the defensive unit you have 2 situational but defensive abilities, and a minor offensive increase. For the ranged unit you have 2 volume of fire increases and a mobility boost.
The template is pretty obvious for a 4 point UA.
Now if you look at the demo corps, its pretty obvious to me at least that what you're getting is +2 pow (edit: and reach 2) in place of another ability, and lets be frank 16 pow is AFAIK the highest base pow of any non warjack/warcaster (edit: infantry before people trot out battle engines at me) model out there, and a crit freeze. Those are the two "base unit" abilites.
The fact that their natural swing is so strong makes it reasonable to assume that PP isnt going to go apenuts with boosting their raw damage output, especially in a faction with access to fury and battle lust. With that in mind, cleave is far more likely to see play than rapid strike, and a raw dice boost is liable to be situational (Vs stationary targets and really kind of bad) or a one shot (power swell, better and more likely to pass design muster). That leaves the third UA benefit to be either mobility or defense. My money is on mobility, probably something like relentless charge, and thats probably a better option than something like wall of steel.
Its also important to remember that in CID they've as much as admitted that there's a group of people whose feedback they're paying close attention to. Going pie in the sky out of the gates is not likely to get people in that group.
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Post by Blargaliscious on Sept 8, 2017 3:08:48 GMT
Ok, look at the templates of Bombardiers and Shocktroopers. They have 1 ability on the base unit, CRA and shieldwall respectively. From there you've got higher armor, or higher range on the non melee weapon (shield cannon for 17 arm instead of 16, or range on the bombard cannon) The weapons either have higher reach, or a crit effect, and the units are 1 point more expensive than demo corps. Now look at the template of the Shocktrooper UA. 2 tactics that are situational and reactive, existing solely to support their ability to use the base shield wall ability and fulfill their role as a meat wall, and a granted ability that lets them use both weapons in the same round despite the fact that their rat isn't great and they aren't TOO terribly likely to land many charges. Look at the template of the bombardier in CID. one granted ability that lets them maneuver into concealment/cover during the advance A minifeat that lets them get some extra shots off Another granted ability that lets them fulfill their role as a ranged unit in the face of jammers without losing volume of ranged attacks. So for the defensive unit you have 2 situational but defensive abilities, and a minor offensive increase. For the ranged unit you have 2 volume of fire increases and a mobility boost. The template is pretty obvious for a 4 point UA. Now if you look at the demo corps, its pretty obvious to me at least that what you're getting is +2 pow (edit: and reach 2) in place of another ability, and lets be frank 16 pow is AFAIK the highest base pow of any non warjack/warcaster (edit: infantry before people trot out battle engines at me) model out there, and a crit freeze. Those are the two "base unit" abilites. The fact that their natural swing is so strong makes it reasonable to assume that PP isnt going to go apenuts with boosting their raw damage output, especially in a faction with access to fury and battle lust. With that in mind, cleave is far more likely to see play than rapid strike, and a raw dice boost is liable to be situational (Vs stationary targets and really kind of bad) or a one shot (power swell, better and more likely to pass design muster). That leaves the third UA benefit to be either mobility or defense. My money is on mobility, probably something like relentless charge, and thats probably a better option than something like wall of steel. Its also important to remember that in CID they've as much as admitted that there's a group of people whose feedback they're paying close attention to. Going pie in the sky out of the gates is not likely to get people in that group. OK, so what changes would you make? Be detailed.
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Post by mcdermott on Sept 8, 2017 3:14:04 GMT
I feel like i was there. UA with cleave, relentless charge and a minifeat for an extra die. Kovnik + charge is an 11 inch threat with pathfinder. Cleave lets them deal with swarm infantry without the risk of 6 points of MoW being enough to thundersmite an 18 point warjack via rapid strike, and the minifeat lets them crush that structure/gargossal when they need to without being a 15 point unit of 5 butcher attacks.
Edit: I just kind of dont think the base unit needs to be meddled with. There are a million units out there that aren't any good without the UA, demo corps is one of them. Changing it up so that it breaks the template established by the other MoW units means a price increase probably more than a single point which seems like the ranged weapon tax, or a weak UA. I'd rather pay for a good UA who rounds out the unit than have an ok unit whose 4 pt ua doesn't do anything significant.
Think of it like the black dragons, they get nothing from the IFP support units. Thats something for character units to have, not base units.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Sept 8, 2017 6:15:17 GMT
Actually, Shocktroopers also have CMA. So yeah. Kinda breaks your calculations if you're doing them like that. =P
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Post by mcdermott on Sept 8, 2017 6:25:35 GMT
Actually, Shocktroopers also have CMA. So yeah. Kinda breaks your calculations if you're doing them like that. =P None of which changes the fact that giving a pow 16 unit rapid strike or a permanent weaponmaster clone is about as pie in the sky as it gets.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Sept 8, 2017 6:30:08 GMT
None of which changes the fact that giving a pow 16 unit rapid strike or a permanent weaponmaster clone is about as pie in the sky as it gets. That would be really mediocre really. Shocktroopers are +1 Arm be default, as well as having the possibility of access to shieldwall. In a sense, Rapid strike is pretty much already what they have with assault. Its not exactly AS great as Pow 16 Rapid strike, but its not really different enough to compensate for losing all those great defensive abilities. Point being that Shocktroopers already hit very hard (Even if their Assaults are inaccurate at times), but are also tough as nails. But nothing about them is OP or has caused complaints or the like. Heck I have had utility out of their shots sometimes. Not very often, but thats again more utility they have over the demo core. For the demo core to be real contenders they really well...need to contend. They need to make up for their very poor defensive and speed abilities with offensive output many times better then now to not make me want to take Shocktoopers.
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