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Post by thebuoyancyofwater on Sept 6, 2017 11:57:49 GMT
Hi folks,
Sorry for bringing up this wonkiest of wonky rules, but I had a query come up in a game recently and wasn't sure what the answer was. Had a look on the PP site, but had no luck.
If two ulhans charge the same thing and the first kills the target, can the second one redirect onto something else in melee?
If so, which weapon does it use? Not the lance I assume, and the rules of the pommel spike seem to suggest it can't use that. So does it have to use the mount attack? What happens if the enemy model is between 0.5 and 1" away? Does that mean no attack because the enemy model is outside of horse-kicking range?
Sorry if the answer is obvious or is elsewhere, like I say I had no luck finding it.
Cheers,
Dave
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Post by smoothcriminal on Sept 6, 2017 12:57:06 GMT
I think the second one does not make any attacks. There is a rule that forbids you to make non-impact mount or sidearm attacks when charging and there's a rule that says lance only works against charge target.
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Post by thebuoyancyofwater on Sept 6, 2017 13:06:39 GMT
That's what I was worried about. As long as storm lances are able to redirect their charges everything is fine  Cheers, Dave |
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Post by tapecrawler on Sept 6, 2017 13:12:45 GMT
Easy Dave, that road only leads to madness. I know I went down it a few months ago.
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Post by Netherby on Sept 8, 2017 23:19:44 GMT
My understanding is that in such a case the second model cannot make an attack as it has no valid weapon it can choose. I guess don't charge the same target with two models?
That said, the charge rules don't actually say that a redirected charge attack isn't a charge attack. It just says the damage roll isn't boosted. But the only time it says the attack is a 'charge attack' is when it's against the charge target.
I would say with RAW that you cannot make any attacks, but you could post on the rules forum and see if they think that is the intended interaction.
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Post by welshhoppo on Sept 9, 2017 8:35:28 GMT
That is why I propose a change to the lance rule!
Blasting Lance. RNG 2 Pow 5. P&S11.
Special Rule: Deadly Impact.
This weapons pow is doubled on charge attacks.
Then drop the pommel spike and sorted. No more issues.
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Post by Netherby on Sept 9, 2017 14:15:40 GMT
Well, the current Lance/Close Combat rule combination on most cavalry goes a long way to making them under powered and under played.
I think they should just drop it entirely. Weapon is just power 16, Rng 2 all the time. There is already plenty of stuff tied to charging (boosted attack roles, impact attacks). There is no reason to neuter expensive cavalry models further. Honestly in their current form they should be much cheaper.
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Post by Tekanan on Sept 9, 2017 14:16:50 GMT
Nah, I think lance rule is fine.
The issue I find with IFUs are their lack of threat post-charge. PS 10 pommel spikes just don't cut it.
If the Pommel spikes had their PS increased to at least 12 (preferably 13), they cannot be ignored post-charge thus increasing their threat.
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Post by droopingpuppy on Sept 9, 2017 15:01:48 GMT
Nah, I think lance rule is fine. The issue I find with IFUs are their lack of threat post-charge. PS 10 pommel spikes just don't cut it. If the Pommel spikes had their PS increased to at least 12 (preferably 13), they cannot be ignored post-charge thus increasing their threat. I doubt that they are useful after the charge even if their sidearm has P+S 12 or 13(or even 14), but it is correct that they have nothing to do after the charge. Melee units are need to make a charge attack to make enough damage to crack armor, after all. Anyway, Lance and Close Combat have the weird interactions and should be changed. Moreover, models with a weapon with Lance should be buffed well and make sure that they are worth their points.... |
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Post by elricaltovilla on Sept 9, 2017 15:24:39 GMT
Did anyone bring this issue up with the rules forum on the PP Forums? If it is this much of a potential problem, they might actually fix it.
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Post by droopingpuppy on Sept 9, 2017 15:35:12 GMT
Did anyone bring this issue up with the rules forum on the PP Forums? If it is this much of a potential problem, they might actually fix it. They are fully aware of the problem, but they didn't touch it for a decade. I don't think that they will review it so easily. |
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Post by narvt86 on Sept 9, 2017 15:39:31 GMT
Iam all in to make them cheaper, to make my point lets compare.
Shocktrooper with ua= 20 points Ulhan=20 points
6 models 5 models
48 hits box 25 hits box
arm 17 arm 17
shield wall arm 21 wall of steel arm 19
reach p+s 14 reach p+s 16 on charge only, and 2 useless .5 and 1 melee
range 6 pow 14 *****
combine arm bonus to hit on charge
speed 4 ouch speed 8 wow (but the only wow moment lol)
steady and sturdy steady
officer critical freeze critical KO (all)
reparable *****
assault impact attack
***** reposition
i know they are not for the same purpose but at 20 points both of them the shocktrooper look so much better speed aside, so at the end i think they should be a little cheaper or as say before give them a better second melee weapon so they arent useless anymore after the charge.
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Post by narvt86 on Sept 9, 2017 15:41:59 GMT
sorry they mix the left and right side i'd put space between them but the post stick them together sorry
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Post by auraco on Sept 9, 2017 17:35:15 GMT
Wait people think Ulhans are useless once in melee? Yeah sure they won't go killing heavies, but they are still mat 7 with two attacks and one of them is pow 12, pow 12 is respectable and high enough to kill most infantry and reliably damage lights . Sure you don't want your Ulhan to get jammed, but they can clearly unjam themselves with two attacks a piece, saying their attacks are useless is just wrong. With a bigger volume of attack they actually have an easier time unjaming themselves than shocktrooper.
Yeah Lance is annoying but PP doesn't seem to want to change this rule, it's been mentionned more than enough to know people don't like it and they still haven't shown sign they will do anything to change it. Better learn to live with it I guess.
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Post by narvt86 on Sept 9, 2017 19:09:59 GMT
iam ok with the rule but 20point for 5 model maybe a little too much
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