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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Sept 1, 2017 4:18:29 GMT
Crucible Guard. They are literally unplayable. No, they are OP. Literally unbeatable.
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Post by Cryptix on Sept 1, 2017 4:22:08 GMT
Legion has won almost every tourney in my region for months now. They are not weak. Oracles is overpowered, yes, Kallus in Children of the Dragon is actually not bad. Trolls have been underperforming in major tourneys by quite a wide margin for almost the entirety of MK 3. We have several severe problems and only one viable theme. I think that the changes made in CID will help a lot when we finally see them, but I'm not sure that will be enough. Storm of the North comes out in November, though, and it does look very good. We should be in a much better place by then. The only other contender for weakest faction is Minions, and there it is always hard to say, for all the usual reasons. Protectorate has performed well enough, I think they just lost a lot of players because they felt like the faction lost too much fluff. I don't get why people say this, Minions are actually in a good place rules wise, people just don't play them.
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Post by Big Fat Troll on Sept 1, 2017 4:28:16 GMT
Legion has won almost every tourney in my region for months now. They are not weak. Oracles is overpowered, yes, Kallus in Children of the Dragon is actually not bad. Trolls have been underperforming in major tourneys by quite a wide margin for almost the entirety of MK 3. We have several severe problems and only one viable theme. I think that the changes made in CID will help a lot when we finally see them, but I'm not sure that will be enough. Storm of the North comes out in November, though, and it does look very good. We should be in a much better place by then. The only other contender for weakest faction is Minions, and there it is always hard to say, for all the usual reasons. Protectorate has performed well enough, I think they just lost a lot of players because they felt like the faction lost too much fluff. I don't get why people say this, Minions are actually in a good place rules wise, people just don't play them. That's kinda what I mean. I know that people say that, but I don't think so, but I don't play against them much, so it's hard to say. Honestly, it's clearly Trollbloods, at least before the CID changes, and maybe even afterward, depending on what sticks and how things shake out. BUT- to be clear and fair, this curve is MUCH flatter than it ever was in MK2, especially after the Trollblood tweaks.
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princeraven
Junior Strategist
Shredder spam is best spam
Posts: 256
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Post by princeraven on Sept 1, 2017 4:41:18 GMT
I would definitely not consider Legion as the weakest faction. Fyanna 2 is so strong and poses a hard question that isn't really seen elsewhere. Ghost Fleet and Cygnar are bad match-ups for Legion but not to the point where we're struggling to compete as much as Trollbloods are.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Sept 1, 2017 12:11:47 GMT
I would definitely not consider Legion as the weakest faction. Fyanna 2 is so strong and poses a hard question that isn't really seen elsewhere. Ghost Fleet and Cygnar are bad match-ups for Legion but not to the point where we're struggling to compete as much as Trollbloods are. One caster should not be the basis of how an entire faction is (look at Haley 2 arguments). I still see Fyanna as a bad, predictable, caster. She does have plenty of easy counters. It's just that the socially constructed meta is not teching for it since larger boogeymen exist. So she gets free reign. Oracles itself is not that bonkers. It is ill designed, but nothing game breaking. Fyanna gives it the "OP" rep it has because nearly everyone relies on her (if the forums are any indication) Again, I know Legion is not the worst. I was not trying to be sarcastic when I asked who sees them. I just know I'm the only person to play Legion in my meta but there have been half a dozen khador, 3 Cygnar, 2 skorne, 4 Circle, 2 trollbloods, and a handful of Ret, Mercs, and Minnions. Granted most all of those players have since left. But the fact is many of them were not new players, they jumped factions to what seemed the most powerful. Circle and Cygnar were the top choices for faction jumps. When I put models on the table the long time vets would blatantly say "I've never seen those before, what do they do?". So I have built a perception from that. I have a pretty decent track record with Legion. But I would never go to a tournament with them and expect anything more than a difficult time. I also understand and hold the same opinion that Trolls are the bottom of the totem pole. But I have practically no experience with them so idk what needs to happen. Though I do know they have some enviable animi and feats.
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Post by smoothcriminal on Sept 1, 2017 12:39:17 GMT
I think it's Menoth even without taking troll cid into account. They are clearly understatted and the abilities that are supposed to make up for it do not do so.
Their recent theme is a step into right direction and looks like how faction was supposed to work (cheap stuff dies and buffs rest of army), but that's one theme list.
Trolls are ... okayish. Their beast lists are all strong. Their infantry lists are lacking, but CID releases are exactly what's needed to fix that I think. I don't see such a wave of releases for Menoth yet outside of 1 new theme.
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Arcaux
Junior Strategist
Posts: 724
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Post by Arcaux on Sept 1, 2017 13:52:08 GMT
The issue with Trolls even after the CID will be:
3 themes released but all have huge problems. - PoD was a good theme but SR2017 hurts it greatly. - BoH is a weird theme. Half the things you take give no free points (fennblades, Krielstone etc) Also no Runebearer is huge. - KC is unfinished. It just doesn't work at the moment, because our ranged units are mopey and the ranged beast selection is weird (See Sons of the Tempest in CID)
On top of all these problems Will Pagani stated this week that forces generally should aim for 15-19 free points. I've never played a troll list with more than 12.
Finally Cryx are back spamming Bane Knights. Trolls hate high armor weapon masters. Cryx are basically back to being as bad for Trolls as Mk2 Cryx which was one of the worst matchups in the game, alongside: - Legion into Trolls - Cygnar into Legion - Cryx into Cygnar
Basically Trolls have had help, but the Scenario pack and Bane theme hurt us more than we were helped by the stone and runebearer change.
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Post by Gamingdevil on Sept 1, 2017 14:05:23 GMT
Finally Cryx are back spamming Bane Knights. Trolls hate high armor weapon masters. Cryx are basically back to being as bad for Trolls as Mk2 Cryx which was one of the worst matchups in the game You realise that Bane Knights haven't been Weaponmasters since the start of MK3 and Bane Warriors (one of the few Weaponmaster choices that Cryx still has) don't have very high ARM, right?
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Arcaux
Junior Strategist
Posts: 724
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Post by Arcaux on Sept 1, 2017 14:16:59 GMT
Finally Cryx are back spamming Bane Knights. Trolls hate high armor weapon masters. Cryx are basically back to being as bad for Trolls as Mk2 Cryx which was one of the worst matchups in the game You realise that Bane Knights haven't been Weaponmasters since the start of MK3 and Bane Warriors (one of the few Weaponmaster choices that Cryx still has) don't have very high ARM, right? Yeah I realise, wasn't taking care when typing. Thanks for the heads up.
Yeah it's a mix of Bane Knights and Warriors. Warriors have enough armour to be immune to pow 8 blast damage, especially when with a Battle Engine. Is your argument that Dark Host isn't a problem for Trolls, because I disagree. That doesn't mean Cryx is OP, OMG WTF Nerf. It just means that Cryx are a problem for Trolls especially when Dark Host is so popular because all the old Cryx players have the models.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Sept 1, 2017 14:19:02 GMT
Finally Cryx are back spamming Bane Knights. Trolls hate high armor weapon masters. Cryx are basically back to being as bad for Trolls as Mk2 Cryx which was one of the worst matchups in the game, alongside: - Legion into Trolls - Cygnar into Legion - Cryx into Cygnar This makes no sense to me. Are you saying Legion is bad into Trolls? Or Trolls are bad into Legion? because I would assume the former, but by that logic Cygnar is bad into Legion and that makes no sense to me. So I would flip the interaction but then why would Cygnar be bad into Cryx? I'm so confused. @_@
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Post by Gamingdevil on Sept 1, 2017 14:26:08 GMT
Is your argument that Dark Host isn't a problem for Trolls, because I disagree. It is not, Banes have always preyed on high ARM, low-medium DEF models, Trolls are their preferred targets and I know they pose a real problem. Just trying to avoid misinformation
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Arcaux
Junior Strategist
Posts: 724
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Post by Arcaux on Sept 1, 2017 14:26:50 GMT
Finally Cryx are back spamming Bane Knights. Trolls hate high armor weapon masters. Cryx are basically back to being as bad for Trolls as Mk2 Cryx which was one of the worst matchups in the game, alongside: - Legion into Trolls - Cygnar into Legion - Cryx into Cygnar This makes no sense to me. Are you saying Legion is bad into Trolls? Or Trolls are bad into Legion? because I would assume the former, but by that logic Cygnar is bad into Legion and that makes no sense to me. So I would flip the interaction but then why would Cygnar be bad into Cryx? I'm so confused. @_@ I was talking about MK2 matchups.
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Arcaux
Junior Strategist
Posts: 724
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Post by Arcaux on Sept 1, 2017 14:27:14 GMT
Is your argument that Dark Host isn't a problem for Trolls, because I disagree. It is not, Banes have always preyed on high ARM, low-medium DEF models, Trolls are their preferred targets and I know they pose a real problem. Just trying to avoid misinformation Absolutely fair. Thanks for the headsup
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Post by W0lfBane on Sept 1, 2017 14:52:18 GMT
I love how this thread is a cripple fight between protectorate, legion and trollbloods about whose more crippled ( when one can't walk, the other can't use his arms and the last one is blind and has no sense of smell)
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Post by chillychinaman on Sept 1, 2017 16:00:07 GMT
Can Legion even be fairly counted among the "cripples?" I mean, we only really have Fyanna Oracles, but the rest isn't garbage.
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