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Post by Wanton Ranger on Sept 7, 2017 0:43:45 GMT
CID is unfortunately not about taking paladins or skyhammers for fluff reasons as if that was the case then people would take them either way. Fluff is not an argument for CID, which revolves around actual practical balance within the game mechanics, though it is nice to try and give abilities that support the background. Acting like these units were popular outside of internet/casual lists is just flying in the face of reality. No-one said that they 100% wouldn't get played.
Whoever thought paladins protecting people from explosions was more "paladin" than defensive strike/shield guard, I guess doesn't get how shields or paladin archetypes work normally... it's very weak fluff reasoning.
And could there be a more boring ability than girded, which addionally is limited by CMD and asks the protected models to move as slowly as the paladin (very Janky indeed). Not interesting from a design viewpoint or in game.
It certainly doesn't ask any questions of the opponent. More Menoth boring... while you are at it, please give us another slow weaponmaster unit with poor Defensive stats so my double cinerator/bastion list has more options... exciting....
A very expensive combat solo, that doesn't even get righteous vengeance unless you have Vilmon as well, has the awful lance rule and doesn't get basic paladin stance when dismounted. This all for the princely sum of 1 less point than Gravus who is a so much more interesting mechanically and provides an excellent effect.
My kingdom for an actual leadership ability
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Post by W0lfBane on Sept 7, 2017 2:21:06 GMT
Honestly i was much more interested in the champion before this new round of changes. You guys kind of ruined him.
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Post by WantonRanger on Sept 7, 2017 7:44:34 GMT
Honestly i was much more interested in the champion before this new round of changes. You guys kind of ruined him. I think that's unfair as PP basically chose to ignore the vast vast majority of the feedback and focused on 1-2 posts that talked about girded. Acting like girded is more thematic than the other options presented (defensive strike/shield guard) based on fluff is just absolute rubbish. Girded meant they could badly follow some fluff and avoided them having to fix the multitude of rule issues caused by melee ranges and unyielding/retaliatory strike. It was the laziest, least work required option for the leadership ability and giving a shield was the other fix required to avoid having to fix unyielding. I would agree that the design is probably now screwed up and we won't see another meaningful change.
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Fire Step
Junior Strategist
Everyday I'm Wrastlin'
Posts: 334
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Post by Fire Step on Sept 7, 2017 8:57:36 GMT
Having checked the cid this morning, it looks like the cid for this batch of models ends Friday.
If you have a contribution you need to make to the Champion then get it in now into the feedback form and battle reports. This is the accepted way to have the developers listen, rather than talking about it here or in the theory section of CID.
Even if you can only get in one game, every piece of feedback is valuable.
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Provengreil
Junior Strategist
Choir Kills: 12
Posts: 850
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Post by Provengreil on Sept 7, 2017 16:43:48 GMT
Having checked the cid this morning, it looks like the cid for this batch of models ends Friday. If you have a contribution you need to make to the Champion then get it in now into the feedback form and battle reports. This is the accepted way to have the developers listen, rather than talking about it here or in the theory section of CID. Even if you can only get in one game, every piece of feedback is valuable. the accepted method of giving feedback is feeding a staffer's confirmation bias. They ignored every written batrep to say the champ was perfect, saw the absolute deluge of people saying he needed to get better, so they removed combat abilities for pure, highly circumstantial defenses (and, yes, a shield). Think about their hostility with the gun carriage, or much of grymkin: PP has a very spotty track record on feedback.
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thelat
Junior Strategist
Posts: 480
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Post by thelat on Sept 7, 2017 17:10:02 GMT
Having checked the cid this morning, it looks like the cid for this batch of models ends Friday. If you have a contribution you need to make to the Champion then get it in now into the feedback form and battle reports. This is the accepted way to have the developers listen, rather than talking about it here or in the theory section of CID. Even if you can only get in one game, every piece of feedback is valuable. the accepted method of giving feedback is feeding a staffer's confirmation bias. They ignored every written batrep to say the champ was perfect, saw the absolute deluge of people saying he needed to get better, so they removed combat abilities for pure, highly circumstantial defenses (and, yes, a shield). Think about their hostility with the gun carriage, or much of grymkin: PP has a very spotty track record on feedback. You complained that Retaliatory Strike was bad, they took away Retaliatory Strike. That's responsiveness to feedback. You can't just complain about something not being good enough. You have to make the case that the thing you want is better for the game as a whole.
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Post by WantonRanger on Sept 7, 2017 21:39:22 GMT
the accepted method of giving feedback is feeding a staffer's confirmation bias. They ignored every written batrep to say the champ was perfect, saw the absolute deluge of people saying he needed to get better, so they removed combat abilities for pure, highly circumstantial defenses (and, yes, a shield). Think about their hostility with the gun carriage, or much of grymkin: PP has a very spotty track record on feedback. You complained that Retaliatory Strike was bad, they took away Retaliatory Strike. That's responsiveness to feedback. You can't just complain about something not being good enough. You have to make the case that the thing you want is better for the game as a whole. People complained that the paladins were not able to use retaliatory strike... not that the strike itself is bad. Unless a paladin survived or has 2" reach it just wasn't that helpful. Retaliatory strike as a concept is great. Pagani has said defensive strike is off the table, so we are stuck with the crap show which is girded.
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Post by chillychinaman on Sept 7, 2017 23:06:51 GMT
Unless a paladin survived AND has 2" reach it just wasn't that helpful. Retaliatory strike as a concept is great... Only if you have the tools to actually use it, ie reach and the ability to survive a hit, which the Champion only have has half of and neither of which regular Paladins have. Another log in the long burning dumpster fire that has been Protectorate development in Mk3 along with the salt in the wound that was yet another source of Girded. Except for Faithful Masses, assuming it gets through with no changes. Bless their pious souls.
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Post by mydnight on Sept 7, 2017 23:43:12 GMT
the accepted method of giving feedback is feeding a staffer's confirmation bias. They ignored every written batrep to say the champ was perfect, saw the absolute deluge of people saying he needed to get better, so they removed combat abilities for pure, highly circumstantial defenses (and, yes, a shield). Think about their hostility with the gun carriage, or much of grymkin: PP has a very spotty track record on feedback. Lol what? people complained about unyielding and retaliatory, so they replaced them. Sure they didn't change unyielding and give them defensive instead, but your point makes no sense and is ironic given it mentions confirmation bias. Every cid models go through around 2-3 iterations based on feedback. Confirmation bias in their case would mostly be 'everything fine let's not change anything'.
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Post by WantonRanger on Sept 7, 2017 23:49:40 GMT
Unless a paladin survived AND has 2" reach it just wasn't that helpful. Retaliatory strike as a concept is great... Only if you have the tools to actually use it, ie reach and the ability to survive a hit, which the Champion only have has half of and neither of which regular Paladins have. Another log in the long burning dumpster fire that has been Protectorate development in Mk3 along with the salt in the wound that was yet another source of Girded. Except for Faithful Masses, assuming it gets through with no changes. Bless their pious souls. Hand of vengeance in faithful masses is just excellent! Girded is complete niche, situational turd. It's not common that you see them nerf something that is underperforming like they have managed with the champ.
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thelat
Junior Strategist
Posts: 480
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Post by thelat on Sept 8, 2017 0:03:23 GMT
The case I am making in the feedback is that Retaliatory Strike was a love letter to Harbinger and that Defensive Strike would be more universally useful to Protectorate warcasters across the board.
Also, in fighting the Lance rule, I am suggesting that lowering the power by 2 points and giving him Brutal Charge would give the same results and would streamline the rules.
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Post by regabond on Sept 8, 2017 16:53:33 GMT
Retaliatory Strike was nearly useless with every caster except for Harbinger. Defensive Strike would have been amazing and possibly too good and also would break the new paladin unit which will be coming out "soon".
Girded is a pretty solid rule. Generally paladins are held back and used as a cruise missile later in the game to finish off a heavy jack or something. Now, while they are holding back, they can be protecting our squishy support, squishy caster, or squishy cheap troops from blast damage, which is very common. POW 10 blast damage is a great way to kill a few Knight Exemplar before their armor buff gets triggered. With a couple paladins holding hands with them, they can safely walk/run up the field. Of course ranged attacks are still an issue in this case, but 1 less thing able to kill you is always great.
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Post by streetpizza on Sept 8, 2017 17:31:07 GMT
Retaliatory Strike was nearly useless with every caster except for Harbinger. Defensive Strike would have been amazing and possibly too good and also would break the new paladin unit which will be coming out "soon". Girded is a pretty solid rule. Generally paladins are held back and used as a cruise missile later in the game to finish off a heavy jack or something. Now, while they are holding back, they can be protecting our squishy support, squishy caster, or squishy cheap troops from blast damage, which is very common. POW 10 blast damage is a great way to kill a few Knight Exemplar before their armor buff gets triggered. With a couple paladins holding hands with them, they can safely walk/run up the field. Of course ranged attacks are still an issue in this case, but 1 less thing able to kill you is always great. Retaliatory strike was useless even with harbinger. Too much range 2 weaponry and guns running around for it to be of any use. The same deal applied to defensive strike. They're both just too easy to avoid on a set of 1" reach models. For the life of me I can't understand why people think either of those are good on paladins. Give me a 2" reach anything and I'd be over the moon for defensive strike. If you've ever played a game against Ellowyr Swordsmen you'll know how good that ability can be when coupled with 2" reach. It wouldn't even be bad on a full unit of 1" models, but on niche solos with 1" reach its complete garbage. Go ahead and test it out into any reasonable group of lists and see.
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thelat
Junior Strategist
Posts: 480
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Post by thelat on Sept 8, 2017 18:20:38 GMT
They're both just too easy to avoid on a set of 1" reach models. Abilities should have counters.
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Post by macdaddy on Sept 8, 2017 18:32:49 GMT
Anyone make a list with Double skyhammers yet? I may or may not have bought a second unit...and I am looking at a second unit of zealots too...I may or may not also have a problem...
I want to run the following:
Testament: Reckoner reveneger X2 Hierophant Deliverer Arms Master Dartan Vilimon min chior Max Skyhammers X2 Holy Zealots Max -UA Idrians Max -UA Wracks X2 Vassal Mechanic
Any thoughts?
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