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Post by HereComesTomorrow on Aug 17, 2017 12:25:54 GMT
How time flies.
So Mk3 is over a year old now? I think? It's arguable due to leaks and such like? How is everyone feeling about it and the overall direction PP is going?
Personally I'm pretty bored of the game as it's meant to be played (tournament level). Casually and played for fun I like it a lot more despite it's lack of charisma. Or nice models. Or affordable price tag.
Meanwhile PP is flopping around on the floor like a child who ate too much sugar changing their minds constantly about the direction the game is going in and releasing stuff with no rhyme or reason, making up AWESUM NEW FAKSHUNS LIEK THESE GUYS ARE FROM HELL AND THESE GUYS HAVE JUMP PACKS AND TANKS AND THESE GUYS ARE A COOL GANG AND GET EXTRA STUFF. Handing the rules to reasonable adults (us) is probably the best thing they could do though.
I enjoy the game when I don't play competitively but PPs actions as a company are just confusing and weird and it's kind of paralyzed me over buying into anything too heavily (more than I already have at least) because I don't know what their next whimsical decision might be.
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isotope
Junior Strategist
Posts: 634
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Post by isotope on Aug 17, 2017 13:08:56 GMT
Bored? You clearly haven't been playing SR17, there's so much depth and a steep learning curve on ways to play the new scenario packet.
Why did you get into the game and buy 5 factions if you didn't like the models or the price tag? They didn't change in mk3.
I don't even want to delve into the second half of your OP-ED piece/ immature imitation on how you think PP is acting...
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Arcaux
Junior Strategist
Posts: 724
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Post by Arcaux on Aug 17, 2017 13:09:42 GMT
I think the game is in a better state than it's ever been.
The new Steamroller might be throwing us slightly out of whack, but it's a long term plan.
I love that internal and external balance are better than they've ever been, Factions are reaching a point where 80% of models are playable and that's amazing.
Locally my gaming group is as strong as it's ever been. We're a small town in central England and have 20-30 players every week.
The price issue might be a problem, but that is UK specific as we're self destructing through Brexit.
Other than that. WHAT A YEAR! Can't wait for WTC lists.
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Post by flamigant on Aug 17, 2017 13:13:20 GMT
If balance wasn't an issue then we would see a lot more diversive top 3 in all of the major tourney's and I know this does not represent how good the players are that play these factions. But tbh the best players also pick the best factions atm and that shows in the current rankings. MK3 was rushed and flawed and PP is doing it's best with the capacity they have to improve but so far it is a very slow process.
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Post by Big Fat Troll on Aug 17, 2017 13:15:20 GMT
I think I'll just copy and paste what I wrote on Facebook.
Look, if we're being totally honest:
The Mk3 launch went badly. The game was rushed and incomplete. There were a lot of problems ranging from materials and logistics to game balance and things just plain not being playtested or vetted sufficiently. There's no denying or sugar coating any of this.
In that rush, they made decisions that later had to be reversed. Several things seemed to come from nowhere, even the good surprises. Yes, it absolutely would have been better to not sell us the faction decks in the first place, or to have more of this information sooner, and so on. Communication was just plain bad, and it all looked bad.
BUT-
First of all, a new edition was absolutely necessary. Mk2 had reached a point where it was literally unplayable. Don't even get me started.
Second, right now is the most balanced and robust this game has ever been. Not even Denny and Haley are dominating the way any of the problem children did in Mk2. Building one list that an entire faction cannot answer was fairly common back then, but now it's very rare.
That's because they have made a heroic effort and done everything short of release an official apology. In the space of a year, Privateer Press has recovered from something that would have sunk a lot of companies. They're really engaged with us and done a great job of standing up, dusting themselves off, and moving forward.
I've been a bigger pain in the ass than most, but I'm managing my own pain and thinking a little clearer now, and I appreciate their efforts all the more. It's funny- I really wanted to make sure that I pulled my weight in the Northkin CID doubly so, and then 80% of the time I saw model rules and thought, "Well, I don't really have anything to add to this."
I guess that bias is part of my perspective here. Trollbloods as a whole got a lot of help, and the Northkin theme looks like a good mix of casual and competitive play. I was really looking forward to it, but it still exceeded expectations.
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Cyel
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Cyel on Aug 17, 2017 13:20:07 GMT
Theme forces are the only hiccup in this definitely best edition of a wargame in my 20+ years wargaming career.
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cain
Junior Strategist
Posts: 243
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Post by cain on Aug 17, 2017 13:22:48 GMT
I must admitt that i`m getting really bored, and have been playing more and more other games.
I think the game rules and mechanics are better then ever, shure. Whats getting me down are:
1) Themes makes its more boring to build lists. Mostly a tournemant player myself, i find playing in theme obligatory. Most lists build themseselfs and its only very minor tweaking. Lists dojoing was something i enjoyed greatly. But not anymore.
2) In tournaments its ton of almost the same armies you play against, because of themes.
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Post by jisidro on Aug 17, 2017 13:24:19 GMT
I agree that PP seems to be all over the place but the core game is so solid it can withstand some headless chicken panic and not crumble.
Current issues for me:
- Themes are shapping up slowly. Well see after the September themes release how things shape up. - Erratas are now few and far between. I like the decision but I'd like to see a CID on the models that vanished following the erratas. - Prices. It's getting damm expensive. - Too much not WM/H happening. Mini-Crate, Prime magazine, Alt sculpts etc...
Out of the minis games out there this one is still the best. Keep it that way.
WTC lists will probably be useless (not as usefull?) since the teams won't have the themes available to them and they are sure to dominate list construction when they are released. If this turns out not to be true then I'M EXCITED AS WELL!
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isotope
Junior Strategist
Posts: 634
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Post by isotope on Aug 17, 2017 13:27:32 GMT
Theme forces are the only hiccup in this definitely best edition of a wargame in my 20+ years wargaming career. I don't think anyone has tried to come out and say PP launched MK3 perfectly. I think we all have our little gripes, there's things we all would like to have our 5 minutes to talk to PP about. I just don't understand the people who's reaction to MK3 was to just throw their hands in the air and scream " that's it, I'm done. Game ruined!" without giving PP any time to let the dust settle. Now that things are starting to get better it's really funny when I see the people in my local meta who did this around the store and they're like " i still hate the game because XYZ" and I'm like " they fixed X 6 months ago, they changed Y 4 months ago, Z is good for the game". They literally can't respond, it's great.
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isotope
Junior Strategist
Posts: 634
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Post by isotope on Aug 17, 2017 13:32:07 GMT
I must admitt that i`m getting really bored, and have been playing more and more other games. I think the game rules and mechanics are better then ever, shure. Whats getting me down are: 1) Themes makes its more boring to build lists. Mostly a tournemant player myself, i find playing in theme obligatory. Most lists build themseselfs and its only very minor tweaking. Lists dojoing was something i enjoyed greatly. But not anymore. 2) In tournaments its ton of almost the same armies you play against, because of themes. That's funny. I managed to take 2nd in a tournament last weekend with neither of my lists in theme. Beating CoC in theme and ghost fleet. SR17 really makes the way you play the game more important than the list you bring. Sure, you still need to bring a list that's well thought out, but the way you play the game is more important. I think every day I have to bust out proxy bases, measure out a scenario and be like "hmmm if I go first i can do this and put something here and... whoa thats cool" or " if i go second " hmm, I can do this, position here and..." and that's even before terrain hits the table and I've seen my opponents list. There's so much depth to SR17 it's amazing.
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Cyel
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Cyel on Aug 17, 2017 13:38:28 GMT
I also don't expect from a wargame the level of balance and mathematically proven consistency I want to find in an average eurogame. WM&H, like every wargame, is an Ameritrash design at heart with all its flaws, but without them it wouldn't be a real wargame.
I have some gripes about PP pricing which I find straight unacceptable (that's why I seek alternative models for my WM&H armies more and more) or about model quality. But this isn't an mk3 problem per se. Most things that used to be a bit problematic for me, like a bunch of broken casters or the Skorne problem or some rules inconsistencies, have been dealt with in various errata and I expect even more improvement with further CiD and errata.
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isotope
Junior Strategist
Posts: 634
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Post by isotope on Aug 17, 2017 13:45:14 GMT
I also don't expect from a wargame the level of balance and mathematically proven consistency I want to find in an average eurogame. WM&H, like every wargame, is an Ameritrash design at heart with all its flaws, but without them it wouldn't be a real wargame. I have some gripes about PP pricing which I find straight unacceptable (that's why I seek alternative models for my WM&H armies more and more) or about model quality. But this isn't an mk3 problem per se. Most things that used to be a bit problematic for me, like a bunch of broken casters or the Skorne problem or some rules inconsistencies, have been dealt with in various errata and I expect even more improvement with further CiD and errata. As for the casters, factions they've done exactly what I predicted from the start. They released mk3, they waited a little bit to watch how the community responded and where the meta was heading. They slowly trimmed things off that were over the top. Now that the dust has settled further and the truly OPOP unbalanced casters have been toned down everything is more towards the center. Now, through CID they can slowly make slight adjustments to things that are still a little too strong and look at what has settled at the bottom and do reworks through CID ( Bearka, Kraye, Madrak1, etc). As for those bottom casters who are now getting reworks... WOW, I really like how they just come out and say it " ok, we don't like how this caster was performing so we wiped the board clean and check out what we wanna do". Trying to do that to every caster that under performed in mk2 when mk3 came out would have been too much at once. With all the other changes we had to adapt to and learn it was wise to wait until things adapted to mk3 before they tried to go in and retool these guys. I'm sure we will see things like Connie B and others in the CID to try and make every caster a viable choice.
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cain
Junior Strategist
Posts: 243
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Post by cain on Aug 17, 2017 13:51:01 GMT
I must admitt that i`m getting really bored, and have been playing more and more other games. I think the game rules and mechanics are better then ever, shure. Whats getting me down are: 1) Themes makes its more boring to build lists. Mostly a tournemant player myself, i find playing in theme obligatory. Most lists build themseselfs and its only very minor tweaking. Lists dojoing was something i enjoyed greatly. But not anymore. 2) In tournaments its ton of almost the same armies you play against, because of themes. That's funny. I managed to take 2nd in a tournament last weekend with neither of my lists in theme. Beating CoC in theme and ghost fleet. SR17 really makes the way you play the game more important than the list you bring. Sure, you still need to bring a list that's well thought out, but the way you play the game is more important. I think every day I have to bust out proxy bases, measure out a scenario and be like "hmmm if I go first i can do this and put something here and... whoa thats cool" or " if i go second " hmm, I can do this, position here and..." and that's even before terrain hits the table and I've seen my opponents list. There's so much depth to SR17 it's amazing.
Shure its possible for good players to win with playing out of theme. But: - most top players seems to prefere playing in theme - most winning lists in discount games overview seems to be themes - there are ton of players playing theme in GT over here in in europe
If the players are on mostly on the same player skill, 16+ points up and some bonus is huge.
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isotope
Junior Strategist
Posts: 634
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Post by isotope on Aug 17, 2017 13:56:12 GMT
That's funny. I managed to take 2nd in a tournament last weekend with neither of my lists in theme. Beating CoC in theme and ghost fleet. SR17 really makes the way you play the game more important than the list you bring. Sure, you still need to bring a list that's well thought out, but the way you play the game is more important. I think every day I have to bust out proxy bases, measure out a scenario and be like "hmmm if I go first i can do this and put something here and... whoa thats cool" or " if i go second " hmm, I can do this, position here and..." and that's even before terrain hits the table and I've seen my opponents list. There's so much depth to SR17 it's amazing.
Shure its possible for good players to win with playing out of theme. But: - most top players seems to prefere playing in theme - most winning lists in discount games overview seems to be themes - there are ton of players playing theme in GT over here in in europe
If the players are on mostly on the same player skill, 16+ points up and some bonus is huge.
And once each faction has 5-10 themes in a year or so... everyone will be able to find a theme that the list they want to play will fit into. So no big deal. When defenders of Ios came out I just had to change 2 things in my list ( which actually make it a stronger list) to get 16 free points. When dawnguard theme comes out if it allows imperatus I can do the same thing to my second list ( take out disco and lanyssa and get stuff). The new merc theme that just came out I can put both my current merc lists into and get free points... It's not changing my list creation significantly enough for me to get upset over. If I didn't play so many character jacks my lists would basically just fit right into the themes.
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Post by HereComesTomorrow on Aug 17, 2017 13:56:22 GMT
I must admitt that i`m getting really bored, and have been playing more and more other games. I think the game rules and mechanics are better then ever, shure. Whats getting me down are: 1) Themes makes its more boring to build lists. Mostly a tournemant player myself, i find playing in theme obligatory. Most lists build themseselfs and its only very minor tweaking. Lists dojoing was something i enjoyed greatly. But not anymore. 2) In tournaments its ton of almost the same armies you play against, because of themes. That's funny. I managed to take 2nd in a tournament last weekend with neither of my lists in theme. Beating CoC in theme and ghost fleet. SR17 really makes the way you play the game more important than the list you bring. Sure, you still need to bring a list that's well thought out, but the way you play the game is more important. I think every day I have to bust out proxy bases, measure out a scenario and be like "hmmm if I go first i can do this and put something here and... whoa thats cool" or " if i go second " hmm, I can do this, position here and..." and that's even before terrain hits the table and I've seen my opponents list. There's so much depth to SR17 it's amazing. I took part in the SR2017 CID, its okay, definitely an improvement over the old system but it doesn't fix the core issues of the fact that people ONLY play SR and PP do nothing to encourage or support other styles of scenario or any level of casual play. Steamroller to me feel very static and characterless, there's no stories being played out because it's a very clinical game and that okay sometimes but not CONSTANTLY. Save
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