Growl
Junior Strategist
Posts: 496 
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Post by Growl on Aug 11, 2017 22:17:08 GMT
So, I play with a fairly mixed group, some very good players and some ok players. On average I am able to get a game in a week, which is not a lot, but life gets in the way. Without getting into specific lists or models, I was hoping some of you could share some of your wisdom with me, ideally so that I could maximize the positives of my experiences. Lately in particular, I have been having more episodes of forgetting to finish up moves; like repositioning a model out of the way at the end of their activation, or creating such convoluted assassination runs that have a worse chance of working than ore direct ones that I just didn't see. I have also moved into this cruddy cycle of "extremes" with my warcaster, either playing so safely with them that they are not where I need them when an opportunity arises, or playing too aggressively with them that I am throwing them away. Apart from getting in more games, I'm wondering if you guys have any advice/mental checklists that you run through that serve you well in the game in general.
Thanks
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Post by Blargaliscious on Aug 12, 2017 0:23:13 GMT
1) Keep it simple. Everything. Look at your gaming *stuff* that you take to the FLGS and figure out ways to either do things more simply or more organized. The more you have to think about stupid stuff, the worse you will be about thinking about the game.
2) Use counters to remind you of things that you can or will forget. Are you forgetting to reposition move your stuff? Put (REPO 3") or (REPO 5") counters next to all of your stuff that has reposition. Are you sometimes forgetting to feat? Put a FEAT counter next to your caster at the beginning of the turn so you remember when you activate him. Reduce what you have to remember so you can better concentrate on the game.
3) Do you forget special rules or abilities and you use Warroom? Print out or bring cards for quick and easy access.
4) Extremes in warcaster use are probably not knowing what the other side can do. There is a lot of stuff in this game and it easy to forget things. Before you start the game review your stuff and review the cards for your opponents stuff.
5) After the end of the game do an After Action Review with the other player and ask him what you did right and what you did wrong. Do the same for him.
6) Relax. The point of playing the game is to have fun. Winning is a nice extra.
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Post by smoothcriminal on Aug 12, 2017 0:56:35 GMT
My checklist is:
Check if opponent overcommited with caster [y/n]
He's either in charge range of a heavy/butcher with or without camp or in shooting range of Behemoth/WG without camp. Don't bother with assassination otherwise, we're not Cryx, Cygnar, etc. we can't make complex assassinations happen reliably.
If opponent didn't then in order:
Don't be greedy []
Position caster safely via proxy and plan the rest from there []
Contest everything you're definitely not going to clear []
Kill objective if you can []
Clear all the zones you can []
Protect your stuff from via positioning/spells []
Deal as much damage as you can []
The order means that you shouldn't put a lot of thought into lower things unless you can achieve higher things. Like who cares about killing stuff or losing models if you're not yet contesting/scoring.
The greedy part means you shouldn't plan doing everything at once. Do things in steps. Like you shouldn't try to charge a unit and clear two sufficiently occupied zones or kill two healthy heavies or clear zone+kill objective, etc. Or start clearing a zone then activate something far away and do something else without finishing doing what you did with some close activations.
Just playing all 7 turns correctly wins a lot of games. The more turns you play the more mistakes or tanking opponent can perform. You don't need a big perfect plan turn to win, get the small opportunities presented to you. And if opponent doesn't present them, then Khador cheap models with good stats often can pull through in the long run on their own.
If nothing seem to work, roll all sixes. A chain of good rolls especially in case of critical effects (freeze, crit devastation, tough, etc.) can turn a game around.
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Growl
Junior Strategist
Posts: 496
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Post by Growl on Aug 12, 2017 1:23:10 GMT
Thanks so far for the responses! In reading them, one thing that came up is that lately I've been playing a lot of Cygnar, Menoth and a little Cryx too. For Menoth and Cygnar, one difficulty I've been having is against things like electro-leaps and ashes to ashes type abilities. The auto hitting stuff that makes me take forever with positioning that even then I don't get right. I try to start to formulate a plan while my opponent is moving, but even with that, I often spend so much time thinking, (which isn't necessarily bad right?), but I obviously overdo it because I am always behind on clock. Games that I win are usually with seconds to spare, or I feel so rushed that I leave something open and get killed, or I clock. It's too bad that even my wins are pressed for time. I think both of the previous posters have good points, I think I should definitely try to have a prioritized list of what to go for, if available, and just run through that. I will have to reread your priority list and either copy it outright or finagle it a bit, but I think it could be put to good use.
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Post by borderprince on Aug 12, 2017 4:33:41 GMT
Post-game review is valuable. Some people find battle reports helpful for that. Consider taking turn by turn photos - they let you see what you might have done differently.
For a couple of specific points:
Do you always need to get it right? Casualties happen - the key is making sure you get it right for key models. Focus on those. Who cares if you lose a couple of Winterguard provided Joe and your caster are OK? So prioritize. Don't be afraid of not being perfect. You just need your decisions to be good enough.
Ask your group if you could play some games without clock - if you're struggling with decision-making, time pressure might not be helping. Once you're more confident with what you're doing, bring the clock back.
Other possibilities:
(1) Smaller games - either lower points values or smaller armies. Less to think about.
Running a jack-heavy army can often be easier than trying to get lots of infantry in the right place (Harkevich generally easier than Karchev, as out of activation movement complicates things). MoW can be similar - high points cost per model.
(2) Include fairly distinct modules in your lists, that you know what they will be doing, more or less. MoW ST + UA + Kovnik + Ragman can do lots of work but is a fairly simple module to run and can afford some mistakes. The MoW are tough, and Ragman well-protected.
(3) Teach - some people learn well by explaining to other people. See if you can get a journeyman league in with some newer players and try to help them. It might help you.
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kaos
Junior Strategist
Posts: 268
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Post by kaos on Aug 12, 2017 7:41:11 GMT
What helped me to up my game, apart playing more and asking to better opponents what I did wrong, it was to watch battles on youtube from high level playing.
You can really see how they play and even if you do not understand all the choices, you will see a point. Like moving stuff in a certain way to contest and how forward or back they play casters, etc.
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Post by zerosequence on Aug 12, 2017 11:41:52 GMT
I have some good general advice about warmachine:
1) A lot of times this game just feeds you a shit sandwhich and you need to eat it, human centipede style. The trick is learning how to respond, both at a game level and a personal level.
2) Develop a coherent plan to win. I can't believe how many people struggle with this. What is your endgame? Can you win on scenario? If not, how do you win? If you can't answer those questions at list building and every turn of a game you likely aren't going to win.
3) At the start of your turn take a deep breath and count to 5. Don't think about anything, just relax and clear your mind. Then review your game state and execute your plan for the turn. At the end of turn look at every model in your army and count up all the ones that activated. Activate those that didn't. Learn to get efficient at these actions so you don't waste clock.
4) Make sure you use tokens for everything. You will forget, even with tokens. Without you don't stand a chance.
5) Build your list with solutions to common problems in mind. If you struggle against e-leaps don't load up on low ARM infantry, and certainly don't place them within 4" of your warjacks. Learn how to compensate for everything through play or list or both.
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Post by smoothcriminal on Aug 12, 2017 19:15:59 GMT
I don't care about leaps/ashes in regards to anything but caster kill specifically for reason of time. Caster should be positioned carefully, otherwise it's extremely easy for opponent to hit what he wants anyway, that 4" distance is bullshit.
You shouldn't put rockets/UAs mixed in the frontline to not give them up completely free for opponent, but you should do this anyway regardless of his faction, so no special tech there.
There are many other time consuming mechanics like that, blasts, overtake, countercharge, etc. In my experience playing against and with them it's always better to save clock than save models. Those models will need rolls to die anyway which they may pass, while lost clock is lost forever.
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kaos
Junior Strategist
Posts: 268
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Post by kaos on Aug 12, 2017 19:22:45 GMT
Electroleap: aoe 5" is not enough? Let's give it aoe 8" because cygnar.
Nerf cygnar buff Khador!
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Post by welshhoppo on Aug 13, 2017 10:40:18 GMT
Find out what opponent is allergic too.
Cover a model in the same substance.
Give this model to your opponent and ask that he paints it for you (make sure you tell your opponent about his superior painting skills)
This will kill him, and you'll have won at life.
I would actually recommend starting Battle Reports. The reason I write them isn't for other people, it's to help me learn from my mistakes and see what I could have done better. Looking back on your battles you'll be able to see things that you wouldn't have noticed before, like positional mistakes or watching your opponent setting up his plan a turn before. Or what you could have done better.
But 99% of the game comes from knowing your opponents stuff as well as your own, and you generally only know by facing it. Sure, many of us know of Ghost Fleet and have theory machined how to beat it, but until Denny shoves you over the table and sticks Sliver 20 inches up your butthole, you won't know exactly how to deal with it.
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Growl
Junior Strategist
Posts: 496
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Post by Growl on Aug 13, 2017 10:53:28 GMT
I have done battle reports before and did find them helpful, most recently though I just have been lazy about getting them down. I take pictures of each of my games and go over them a lot and I think I learn a good deal from the review. I guess I should just force myself to write about them more. Good advice!
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Post by welshhoppo on Aug 13, 2017 10:59:41 GMT
It's the best way. Because it allows people to give you advice based on different parts of the game. It's easy enough for someone to go "I need help vs Legion they always seem to beat me." And we give you various advice, but it's a lot better to see what goes wrong and work from there. It might be because you are using the wrong models or it might even be the case of "For the last three games you left your heavies in Hellmouth range and they all died you pleb, stop doing that."
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