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Post by allinontrolls on Aug 11, 2017 4:38:01 GMT
For a lot of troll players calandra is one of our best casters and I don't see why. She is really flexible and can play many different play styles but which one is she really good at so we would not take another caster.
In my opinion star crossed is overrated in trolls. Don't get me wrong star crossed is really amazing but with our base def of 12 my oppents needs 5 and star-crossed does not help. Perhaps our cid will help but currently I do not see a reason to play calandra in a list where another caster is not better at.
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Post by mydnight on Aug 11, 2017 6:18:10 GMT
In my opinion star crossed is overrated in trolls. Don't get me wrong star crossed is really amazing but with our base def of 12 my oppents needs 5 and star-crossed does not help. Should have been there during madrak1 cid if you think def skew for your whole army isn't good. Also def base 12 is a misnomer. If you're only going to bring things with def 12 and no way to increase it then really you can't complain then Calandra isn't doing much. It would be like briging only lights + 1 mauler and then saying the mauler isn't contributing enough. First off, Cal has bullet dodger. Second we have swamp troll, chronicler, champs (now viable post cid) earthborn, and soon to be buffed sea king. Some of our units are actually def 13 base too. Second, Cal can buff def while buffing accuracy, damage, and also has a fury 8 pseudo telekinesis. In the world of fast, accurate and hard hitting, she basically covers it all, with the 'fast' part limited to befuddle. With post-cid arc Mulg she can only get better. In some sense horgle is the most similar to her, and it is difficult to argue that horgle is clearly better. |
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Post by Trollock on Aug 11, 2017 7:07:59 GMT
If she is top 3 is perhaps questionable. We have like ten casters who compete for top three in faction. She IS good though. Play her five times and then come back to us. Make sure you try PoD with double whelps  |
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Post by allinontrolls on Aug 11, 2017 9:07:06 GMT
If she is top 3 is perhaps questionable. We have like ten casters who compete for top three in faction. She IS good though. Play her five times and then come back to us. Make sure you try PoD with double whelps OK. I played her in two tournaments in Pod. My pod lists in general are build to crack armor/boxes (khador/evyros/amon/Coc). If my opponent uses jacks whelps are nice for blocking charge lanes but -1 are only for living models. Perhaps with the point decrease for the sea king a build with ebdt and seaking could work. Speaking about boh. I can't find a list I would play calandra instead of madrak 1 or 2. The reason I started this thread is not about thinking she is bad but I can't see the reason why she should be one of our strongest casters. |
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Post by ninjastars on Aug 11, 2017 13:54:38 GMT
Calandra is the best troll caster that doesn't do well. On paper she is unbelievable. Star crossed is an incredible spell, she has a control spell that Haley players can respect, a knockdown assassination almost as good as grissels and a dogganm damage/accuracy buff feat, in trolls!
But on the table, it never quite works out. Star crossed is great, but you always end up running into o shooting army or some jerk with carnage or dark guidance who gets around it. Befuddle is nice, but you have to get too far forward to use it. Her knockdown assassination is good, but you're always just 2 inches short, that 2 inches that grissel has on her.
Personally I'm interested to see if new mulg changes things up. Being able to arc befuddle and misfortune may finally give her the game she was missing.
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Post by Andrivan on Aug 11, 2017 14:31:12 GMT
Yes she is top 3. The Runebearer can cast befuddle, she can fuel the stone without issue, star crossed is amazing - especially with chroniclers and shaman clouds. Additionally bullet dodger is a phenomenal spell in a great number of situations. Rerolls on demand are also a thing. She is a finesse caster in an army of hammers and anvils. Learn to use her properly and you can do very well.
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Arcaux
Junior Strategist
Posts: 724 
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Post by Arcaux on Aug 11, 2017 14:39:29 GMT
She's an all rounder which is her biggest strength and her biggest weakness.
She doesn't answer enough questions and while she might be good into 70% of the field, her all-roundedness means the 30% she can't play is very difficult to fill with one list.
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Aug 11, 2017 14:43:02 GMT
Yes she is top 3. The Runebearer can cast befuddle, she can fuel the stone without issue, star crossed is amazing - especially with chroniclers and shaman clouds. Additionally bullet dodger is a phenomenal spell in a great number of situations. Rerolls on demand are also a thing. She is a finesse caster in an army of hammers and anvils. Learn to use her properly and you can do very well. Also, many of the CID changes will benefit her alot. 18" star crossed, self fueled stone, Mulg can channel, Sea King and Earthborns got cheaper. The Age of the Troll cometh. |
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Post by macdaddy on Aug 11, 2017 15:52:39 GMT
Star Crossed is amazing. Even in trolls. Especially in a 16"(18" with CiD runebearer) bubble.
Arcaux said it the best. She is so well rounded it's hard to find the right pairing for her
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Post by ninjastars on Aug 11, 2017 16:50:19 GMT
star crossed really isn't as amazing as it looks. it doesnt work very well on ranged armies and folds to a mat fixer.
Don't get me wrong, its a good spell, but part of the problem is people just say "star crossed is amazing!" and leave it at that. they treat it like its this silver bullet that just wins games, and that's not what it is. Its really strong into some matchups and weak into others.
It reminds me of a game i had the other day. i was playing into a Protectorate list that relied on drifting redeemer blasts to kill infantry. I was playing horgle so i had solid ground up, totally neutering his game plan. after the game he came up to me and said "god, solid ground is amazing, its way too good." then a cygnar player wandered up and said "eh, its alright i guess."
Star crossed is like that. anyone playing a lot of mat 6 models is going to think its totally unfair, but if you run into someone playing sloan or skarre or makeda 1, they're not going to think its a big deal. its a good spell but its still matchup dependent.
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Post by droopingpuppy on Aug 11, 2017 17:32:03 GMT
For a lot of troll players calandra is one of our best casters and I don't see why. She is really flexible and can play many different play styles but which one is she really good at so we would not take another caster. That's the whole reason, and enough to be earn the title of 'best caster' of a faction. Think about that the most bad models in the game are actually only good at specific situation. Useful in the most times already prove that it is good enough, also even better if the model is warcaster/warlock that defines your list's tactics and concept. It means that she can leads the core list, while she have some friends to cover her weakness. In my opinion star crossed is overrated in trolls. Don't get me wrong star crossed is really amazing but with our base def of 12 my oppents needs 5 and star-crossed does not help. Perhaps our cid will help but currently I do not see a reason to play calandra in a list where another caster is not better at. But that's allowed because your faction is Trollbloods. I don't think that it would be happen for some factions that able to access for DEF 13 or 14 so easily. Star-Crossed is actually very helpful in the real games. It effective gives your stuffs about +2 DEF, and with her wide control range even many ranged factions are have a hard time to bend this. As a Cygnar gamer(with some game experience to play her by borrow my friend's Trollbloods models), attacking out of her control range was not so easy in MKII, and even harder for now because her control range is increased. Also I suspect that only Cygnar can attempt to attack out of her control range reliably in the most times, for the most factions lacks RNG 14+ weapons by default. Perhaps some Retribution or Mercenary list can, but I can't imagine the other factions. Sure, in order to use it well, you need to bear the risk. But you can have some bricks to put in front of her. |
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Post by Big Fat Troll on Aug 11, 2017 18:34:53 GMT
It's not just Star Crossed- Befuddle, Bullet Dodger, and Soothing Song are really good too. Fury 8 and her Fate-Blessed ability to reroll can be huge and her feat is great. I think what you're struggling with here is the age-old game balance dilemma of generalists VS specialists. Some players prefer specialists and it sounds like you're one of them. I prefer generalists, and I can tell you that even they tend to have certain things that they do better and you can still tweak a build for that. Calandra's kit has a theme of dice fixing. This goes deeper than helping players who don't roll well. Look at it this way: dice fixing is better when you have more dice to fix. Fury 8 and Soothing Song push her toward POD obviously, but Fate Blessed and her feat want Moar Dice. We have a few ways of getting there. Volume of Attacks: The most obvious way to roll more dice is to make more attacks. Our best theme for this is Kriel Company. Sluggers come to mind, just for starters. It's not just guns, though- Fenns can generate a fair number of attacks in melee, for example. Sprays and AOE: Much of the point of these is to hit multiple targets, and that means rolling more dice. Scattergunners have tons of sprays but this is also part of the synergy she has with Bombers and Shamans. Weapon Masters: (And other boosted and additional die effects, like the Hooch Hauler and Slag Troll.) We actually have quite a few options here. When you cross reference that list with models that have at least some way to get DEF higher than 12 (where Star Crossed starts to shine IMO) you get some good options that all happen to be available in one theme. This is the list that I wanted to play in the CID if I hadn't been so busy with Kolgrima. conflictchamber.com/#c7201b_-0G5aiRiRjq6GfJfJj20li-ezezj8bKj3Trollbloods Army - 74 / 75 points [Theme] Storm of the North (CID) !!! Your army contains CID entries. !!! You are using a pre-release theme. (Calandra 1) Calandra Truthsayer, Oracle of the Glimmerwood [+27] - Earthborn Dire Troll [14] - Earthborn Dire Troll [14] - Trollkin Runebearer [0(5)] Fell Caller Hero [0(5)] Northkin Shaman [4] Northkin Shaman [4] Valka Curseborn, Chieftain of the North [0(6)] Krielstone Bearer & Stone Scribes (max) [9] - Northkin Elder [3] Northkin Fire Eaters [7] Northkin Fire Eaters [7] Trollkin Champions (max) [16] - Skaldi Bonehammer [5] Hearthgut Hooch Hauler [18] Everything here except the Krielstone and Runebearer checks at least one box on our list and most have two criteria. I might even swap out the Fire Eaters for Raiders, and my synergy strategy would still be intact. Even before the Northkin models are released, the changes to the models we have will go into effect. So Calandra could just go to Band of Heroes and double down on Champs. Long Riders meet these criteria too because their cavalry charges roll at least six dice per model if you bring Horthol and they are able to use their impact attacks. IIRC the Devs said they are adding the Runebearer to Band and maybe looking at a couple other things to make list building easier there, so we'll see. |
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Post by trollsareblue on Aug 11, 2017 19:27:20 GMT
I suspect that once she has Mulg to channel spells, and arcane repeater, the crying will begin. Many casters must feat to overcome Star-crossed. Even those that don't have to feat generally have to advance in order to apply MAT fixers, making them easier to assassinate. You should be considering Fate-Blessed when talking about her as well, which I rarely see people doing. I bet most people forget about it. Rolled triple 1s on a charge? Nope. Whiffed that attack to clear an important enemy model? Try again.
Generally, when considering whether a caster is good, I look at three things.
1. Does the caster have a way to manipulate distances?
2. Does the caster offer a MAT fixer?
3. Does the caster offer a damage increase?
Two out of three means a caster should be competitive. Cally meets all the criteria, and will get even better with the Mulg-node.
People seemed to dismiss her after EE was nerfed, but I still won plenty with the toned down version. She's the reason I started playing trolls, and the only reason I don't play her more now is that my usual opponents are tired of playing against her. Cally is a caster that rewards creativity, and the ability to see the table state. She is not point-and-click. Practice, practice, practice.
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Post by Andrivan on Aug 11, 2017 21:45:10 GMT
She's an all rounder which is her biggest strength and her biggest weakness. She doesn't answer enough questions and while she might be good into 70% of the field, her all-roundedness means the 30% she can't play is very difficult to fill with one list. What can't she play into? If she is so versatile you can make a list for most situations. As you stated, if she's good against 70% of the field, why not make your second list to cover that 30%? From reading the thread, I think that many of you play on boards with very little terrain and don't employ Chroniclers or Northkin Shaman in your lists. Def bonuses are everywhere and it's fairly easy to get Def 16 on your Vanguard. |
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joedj
Junior Strategist
Posts: 513
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Post by joedj on Aug 11, 2017 23:25:02 GMT
Calandra may not be in everyone's top 3, but she is in mine.
An opponent may field an accuracy skew army, many in our venue do. Star Crossed won't be a thing. Yet that means I'll be doing the same via Fate Blessed, 3 Fury for re-rolls when not used for Star Crossed, which also provides the potential for damage skew.
I've always disliked playing her against newer players because she has a toolbox to make plays that make your opponent think you are cheating.
Tournament-wise Calandra may seem to lack that compelling reason of other warlocks (near assassination proof+troop damage buff, entire BG alpha-SPD, entire BG survival-buff+non-spell buffs, etc.) to field her. I'm thinking that may change with the intro of an arc node, considering multiple Trollblood telekinesis (Befuddles) or Misfortunes (giving Grissel2 a run for her money in drop-n-pop game).
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