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Post by Falcen on Aug 10, 2017 11:35:27 GMT
It take some time to build list in "new" theme and test it well enough. Do you remeber first reactions of Cryx players to Ghost fleet? .. and after a while they've figured it out. Do you assume Legion player are to bad to do the same by now? While I agree that Ravens/CotD are mainly infantry themes, imho our infantry isn't fit to deal with the current meta. Even our prime WM unit (Swordsmen) still needs a lot of help to see tournament play. For example the pKallus list which gave them the BB buff and a damage upkeep plus the feat to circumvent their "I die easy" stats. That are 3 major buffs just to make them viable! Raptors are nice and all but to expenive to be thrown into melee and poison doesn't work against jacks. Everything else doesn't even have a chance to deal with high ARM/boxes. What Legion needs is new releases, a good CID and/or a huge meta shift. SR2017 might still have an impact comming, though not much (or at least "not enough") has happened since its release, probably because the change to the scenario win condition. Guess I sound very salty here... but I have my emotions in check. All in all I wouldn't say Legion is bad per se, but is the embodiment of mediocrity. Against a lot of infantry we still have great tools. It's just that this isn't as necessary anymore. If it would be, CotD/Ravens would see more play imho. So for me it's no surprise that OoA is all over the place and imho this is not only due to false expectations from players or them being to dumb to invent new lists...
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Post by neutralyze on Aug 10, 2017 12:33:36 GMT
I think CotD is fine or very close to fine now. I'm not gonna discuss what other faction have but some builds work betters in CotD than in other themes/no theme and its always worth to consider it. Allowing naga/forsaken/both would bring it up but I can live without it. Some buffs to Soldier or Legos later in the future CID can help it too. What annoys me is the fact that S&H can be free in Oracles but not in Ravens. Why ? I usually have 14-20 free points in Oracles, 16-18 in CotD and 8 in Ravens. I really hope that possibility of 5 free cards in ravens is not the reason. That would be crapy one. Hellmouths would be nice in Ogrun theme and they are not restricted to one only so other ideas welcome You have 8 free points in ravens because you need units to get your free points.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Aug 10, 2017 12:58:31 GMT
ok I will try to keep my hysterical grumpyness in check... copperflame - the changes you are asking for the Nephilim are ridiculously powerful. 9pt Pow13 weaponmaster with precision strike and brutal charge? Whether that is a change to the model or some kind of laser focused theme buff; way too powerful. If any other faction got that we (legion) would be up in arms, so you can only assume people would freak if we got it. CotD is not a bad theme. I've found very tactically involved and successful lists with Bethayne, Kryssa, and Lylyth 2. It can be done. What I think everyone wants though is absolute-concrete-undoubtably competitive tournament *winning* themes. Ravens and CotD just aren't and I'm sure if Oracles was designed logically (free points based off magic ability models) it wouldn't be either. I don't see that as a problem. They are in every sense, viable. If the meta doesn't conform to the theme list, that's no fault of the theme and DOES NOT mean the theme or models therein need to be changed. I do wish the soldier would get some sort of mechanical self-contained synergy. Counter charge, grievous wounds, just something other than overtake. He's no heavy killer, nor should he be. He's a 9 point light. In my mind he should be a utility. Like the Bloodseer and the Protector (whom I would love to get the no KD animus back). I also think that Ravens is a bit lacking targets. Striders do fantastically well against infantry but, as mentioned, the meta at the moment does not support infantry cores. Still not a fault of the theme. Raptors are great but Poison bows aren't going to take down a warjack; that's my only complaint.
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bward
Junior Strategist
Posts: 184
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Post by bward on Aug 10, 2017 14:06:49 GMT
CotD and Oracles are both fine. I think the only theme we will see is the Ogrun theme that allows Hellmouths.
The real question, and the fix for RoW, is where can character beasts go? When they say each model should have a theme, I imagine each character should also have a theme.
Golab is a natural choice for RoW, and I think is the missing piece to put that theme into competitive play. Lightning strike would really unlock the twins, and Fyanna would have a reason to play outside Oracles. Thag2 might even want to play in it.
Typhon should slot into the Ogrun theme, as Thags is THE Ogrun caster. The only one that leaves is Proteus... no theme really fits him so he may need to wait for a future release.
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whydak
Junior Strategist
Posts: 288
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Post by whydak on Aug 10, 2017 14:16:24 GMT
It take some time to build list in "new" theme and test it well enough. Do you remeber first reactions of Cryx players to Ghost fleet? .. and after a while they've figured it out. Do you assume Legion player are to bad to do the same by now? CotD change was not so long ago, I would restart the clock for it on update time. There were working builds in Ravens, just Oracles turned out better on similiar job. Oracles has little infantry what can couse new problems in SR17 and result in some list reevaluation.
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Post by chillychinaman on Aug 10, 2017 14:48:01 GMT
.. and after a while they've figured it out. Do you assume Legion player are to bad to do the same by now? CotD change was not so long ago, I would restart the clock for it on update time. There were working builds in Ravens, just Oracles turned out better on similiar job. Oracles has little infantry what can couse new problems in SR17 and result in some list reevaluation. While the addition of Azrael was great, I think you're overestimating his impact. Also, how are RoW and CotD slotting into people's pairings? What are you dropping them aagainst?
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princeraven
Junior Strategist
Shredder spam is best spam
Posts: 256
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Post by princeraven on Aug 10, 2017 14:59:19 GMT
I think swapping the free points requirements between Ravens of War and Children of the Dragon would make both themes more competitive.
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Post by dxman on Aug 10, 2017 15:03:14 GMT
I imagine CotD would be a lot easier to write lists for if it had access to a threat extender to make up for the lack of Seraph. Hellmouths would be a fine option, but I can see how they may not fit thematically.
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Post by davycannonhound on Aug 10, 2017 18:15:09 GMT
Here's a super minor change... What if CotD for CotD, free solos and UAs were based off of warbeasts, but for X amount of points pf warrior models you got a free lesser?
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Post by copperflame on Aug 10, 2017 19:39:23 GMT
Falcen - I laughed out loud at work (my lunch break). Even then, everyone stopped and stared. Well played sir! ok I will try to keep my hysterical grumpyness in check... copperflame - the changes you are asking for the Nephilim are ridiculously powerful. 9pt Pow13 weaponmaster with precision strike and brutal charge? Whether that is a change to the model or some kind of laser focused theme buff; way too powerful. If any other faction got that we (legion) would be up in arms, so you can only assume people would freak it we got it. CotD is not a bad theme. I've found very tactically involved and successful lists with Bethayne, Kryssa, and Lylyth 2. It can be done. What I think everyone wants though is absolute-concrete-undoubtably competitive tournament *winning* themes. Ravens and CotD just aren't and I'm sure if Oracles was designed logically (free points based off magic ability models) it wouldn't be either. I don't see that as a problem. They are in every sense, viable. If the meta doesn't conform to the theme list, that's no fault of the theme and DOES NOT mean the theme or models therein need to be changed. I do wish the soldier would get some sort of mechanical self-contained synergy. Counter charge, grievous wounds, just something other than overtake. He's no heavy killer, nor should he be. He's a 9 point light. In my mind he should be a utility. Like the Bloodseer and the Protector (whom I would love to get the no KD animus back). I also think that Ravens is a bit lacking targets. Striders do fantastically well against infantry but, as mentioned, the meta at the moment does not support infantry cores. Still not a fault of the theme. Raptors are great but Poison bows aren't going to take down a warjack; that's my only complaint. You are right, WM on Neph Solider is too powerful. I concur that he needs something. I like all of your suggestions. There could be a play to give him the Scythean's abilities/role (2" range, thresher and grievous wounds combo) for a beast answer to infantry. This would free up the Scythean to be something else (and hopefully more useful (or maybe this is a reflection of meta and I shouldn't play arm-chair designer). But the ideas around my post is that I would like to see less 'Free Points' and more 'Special Abilities'. Neph providing some sort of aura to synergize with infantry would be along these lines. I think I posted once before that the CotD theme could have allow Neph to count as friendly warrior models for FF spells/abilities. (this may be over powered, but you can see my train of thought here). I don't like Striders for anti-infantry anymore. I would if their Rat was higher I think but most of the time I prefer other answers (Ravagores, Death Stalkers, etc.) But their ability to whittle down and jam (high def) is probably what I am missing (I never said I was a good player). But what I do want is to play have something for Striders (Rangers and Scouts) to shine in.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2017 19:47:20 GMT
The 2 problems with the other theme forces is they are too restrictive (loss of key pieces like seraph, naga) and the theme benefits do not allow to maximize free points in a synergistic way like oracles or heavy metal or storm division do. Those themes let you take everything you want and give you free points of stuff you also want. Ravens and Cotd force you to bring more balanced lists, where you are only bringing two free things usually, and under the casters where they would best play in, are lacking key pieces that those casters want.
That being said, I still come up with lists and try to play these themes. They can still have game and be fun, but the restriction level and the meta means there are matchups they can't cover as well as oracles.
I expect new releases will boost these themes, but I don't have much hope that they will see CID anytime soon. Although I could be surprised, as the amount of stuff the add to CID is quite surprising.
I'm more excited for ogrun theme anyway. And I will be on a mission from God to ensure the Blightbringer gets in there if he isnt.
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Post by maximumhippo on Aug 11, 2017 3:26:52 GMT
CotD change was not so long ago, I would restart the clock for it on update time. There were working builds in Ravens, just Oracles turned out better on similiar job. Oracles has little infantry what can couse new problems in SR17 and result in some list reevaluation. While the addition of Azrael was great, I think you're overestimating his impact. Also, how are RoW and CotD slotting into people's pairings? What are you dropping them aagainst? Right now, my pair is still Kryssa CotD with Lylyth2 Ravens. Has been since April. The lists themselves have changed over time but the cores are the same. I've been casually playing Thagrosh1 or Vayl2 out of theme entirely. Since A & Z were added to CotD I've been looking at expanding on it somewhat and I've got a Thagrosh2 List I want to try out. Lyl Ravens is dropped against Cygnar Skorne, Circle, Minions and the Legion mirror. Kryssa is dropped into the Rest. The Khador list chicken is the only real issue I've come across. Kryssa loses pretty hard to Vlad rockets but Lyl makes it a game. Meanwhile Lyl cannot hold up to Hark/Karchev jack spam but Kryssa can delete jacks easily.
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