|
Post by Netherby on Aug 7, 2017 5:43:19 GMT
So let's look at the 'free' points more.
The three current themes allow 2 to 3 free cards to be taken in a standard 75 point list. You have to go pretty deep on the free thing prerequisite to get up to 3 cards though.
That means you get an average of 8 to 12 'free points'. Now if you could spend an extra 12 points how you wanted then it would be a pretty strong bonus. But you have had to spend around 60 points on specific stuff in order the unlock those free cards. Then the selection you get to spend them on is very limited. It's not nearly as powerful a bonus as it initially sounds like when you say: 'I get an extra 12 points' or 'my army is 16% bigger'.
This carries into building IN theme as well. You should be building what you think is a good list instead of trying to maximise free cards. Just build your list and then see how many free cards it gets. Choose the best cards for your list, not the most expensive (though in Khador pretty much all our free cards are 4 points).
|
|
|
Post by borderprince on Aug 7, 2017 10:14:04 GMT
That means you get an average of 8 to 12 'free points'. Now if you could spend an extra 12 points how you wanted then it would be a pretty strong bonus. But you have had to spend around 60 points on specific stuff in order the unlock those free cards. Then the selection you get to spend them on is very limited. It's not nearly as powerful a bonus as it initially sounds like when you say: 'I get an extra 12 points' or 'my army is 16% bigger'. Unless that limited selection is of things you already wanted. For example, the Kayazy or IFP UA both make their units much better, and it is rare to see the units without them, even outside theme. Then you are getting 8-12 points more to spend, albeit within the constraints of the theme. But if (for example) you get 8 points of models you would have wanted anyway in LoS, that almost pays for the Great Bears (who you probably also want). Not disagreeing in general, but you are being too specific. At least on the margins, it is worth considering whether a particular choice will cross the threshold to another free model. Say you have 4 points left in a WGK list after including what you consider to be essential for the list. You could buy a Widowmaker Marksman. Or you could spend the 4 points on a WG model/unit (2 rocketeers, or a Field Gun) and then get a free model. It might be the case that in this particular list the Marksman is a better call, but in that context the 4 point Marksman is competing with both the four points of paid for WG models and the free model. At that point, the benefit provided by the Marksman needs to be pretty pronounced to make it the better choice.
|
|
|
Post by Netherby on Aug 7, 2017 12:27:49 GMT
I don't think you're really getting the point. And I think this is probably the core of the problem. People just see that their list is 'down 12 points' over what it could be. They take the restrictions for granted and don't consider the handicap that actually puts on their list.
Sure, if I wanted to make a list with 3 units of IFP then it would be silly for me to not use the theme and get free UAs on all of them. BUT I just made a list that isn't very competitive to begin with. I'm going to need all the help I can get!
Let's say I made a more sensible list. I'm going to take just one unit of IFP. So I get my free UA, that's nice. I guess I take a Kovnik next instead of making my unit Black Dragons. If I want to run BDs then the Kovnik isn't that attractive a choice, but it's free... Then my 3rd choice? Well, I have to take another Kovnik. Not because I really want one but because it's the best option of the free choices. Though now I have to own two Kovniks when previously there is no way I would have wanted to. I'm not actually getting a lot out of those points, I'm getting some things I NEED in order for my list to be at all competitive against a non-themed list.
Now unbalanced overpowered themes can exist. But if they are relatively balanced then the 'free points' simply allow them to compete with a non-theme list. The themes would be much less competitive if they had the current restrictions and didn't give you any freebies. In my opinion none of the current Khadoran themes are in the overpowered category and therefore you will not be disadvantaged by making non-theme lists.
|
|
|
Post by leotherat on Aug 7, 2017 13:29:55 GMT
Sometimes theme lists can make up for a unit's inherent weakness. For example the Blindwater theme turns Gatorman Posse units into something worthwhile and still gives other benefits. If the Man O War theme gives them some ability that they lack and need then I, for one, will give it some serious playtime.
I don't think that you should judge themes against other themes. Each theme has to be judged on its own merits from both a competitive and casual standpoint. Some may to better competitively but be less fun for a night with friends. Others may be great for a casual game but wouldn't hold up well in an event environment. Ideally a theme would do well in both instances but, so far, those are rare.
|
|
|
Post by Netherby on Aug 7, 2017 13:42:31 GMT
Well, I'v tried to qualify everything with 'in khador and the current themes we have'. There are definitely some themes in other factions that you're probably going to run in a lot of your pairings. I hope that Khadoran themes remain as viable options but not so dominating that playing out of theme becomes the weaker option. So far our themes are in an okay place for balance, weather you love or hate them.
|
|
|
Post by borderprince on Aug 7, 2017 13:49:44 GMT
I don't think you're really getting the point. And I think this is probably the core of the problem. People just see that their list is 'down 12 points' over what it could be. They take the restrictions for granted and don't consider the handicap that actually puts on their list. No, I get the point. I just don't agree. More accurately, I don't agree that your point applies in all cases, especially in the two list context. Taking the example from your post, I don't think I would field three units of IFP. But I would seriously consider fielding one unit of IFP and a unit of Uhlans in the same list. In that context, LoS is a serious contender for the basis of the list. I can take the max IFP, max Uhlans and Great Bears. I get the IFP UA free and a free Kovnik. Both of which I would want to support the vanilla IFP. Now in some lists, with some casters, the restrictions are too pronounced to regard that as a sufficient. But in other lists, I'd be happy to give up on flexibility in one of my lists to get more points of jacks or cover the cost of Markov, as well as the very good counter-charge benefit and advance move - it becomes a strong scenario list that hits hard. Losing flexibility can be acceptable, especially if the inherent restrictions of a theme list are addressed by the other part of a pair.
|
|
|
Post by GumbaFish on Aug 7, 2017 14:32:56 GMT
I agree that our themes in general are more useful for their benefits rather than their free points but I wouldn't ignore the free points all together. I have found that in some cases they can be very useful. For example, with Strakhov 1 in Jaws of the wolf the extra forge seers really provide a lot of utility with their extra focus which means that I can do more casting with Strakhov himself. Here the extra points provide some much needed support with good synergy when running a decent amount of jacks. By conrast, in winter guard kommand the extra free points are often things which I could live without and aren't something I think about when building a list because I'm primarily after the advanced moves and sac pawn.
And I do agree though, I think there are still plenty of non theme options for Khador out there. I hope this remains the case despite the design direction.
|
|
|
Post by Netherby on Aug 7, 2017 14:47:40 GMT
I'm not going to continue to debate. I think I have made my points quite clearly by now, but if you're still not sure I am not saying themes are bad. What I am saying is:
1) In Khador currently you are not at a disadvantage running lists outside one of the available themes. Don't be afraid to do it.
2) When running in a theme look to the bonuses it gives you, not to how many 'free points' of models you can squeeze into it.
|
|
|
Post by welshhoppo on Aug 7, 2017 14:50:10 GMT
Played one game out of theme and lost.
Never playing out of theme again.
|
|
|
Post by smoothcriminal on Aug 7, 2017 14:57:52 GMT
While I don't think disadvantages are that big I'd say themes provide the optimized way to play certain list archetypes even without bonuses. You can remove themes completely and those lists (wg+jacks, all fang, all jack, kayazy+jacks) would still be best way to build specific archetype.
I don't see an advantage in combining different unit types. At best it's some specific merc counter to some specific meta lists.
|
|
|
Post by sand20go on Aug 7, 2017 18:24:44 GMT
So here is my "quickish" take - the key problem with our themes is that they ask (and answer) similar questions outside of a few caster-theme combos (see below).
1. Jaws and Legion of Steel are FANTASTIC themes for in battles AGAINST relatively low model count armies.
Both of these themes get tuned up to 11 at present against the vast bulk of low model count armies. There are a few things to be concerned with - including control casters - but generally speaking you can do great work with these builds if you see 6-7 heavies across the table from you with a myriad of our casters that have just a small big of synergy with the rest of their army.
This was, I would submit, critical during the first year of MK3. As PP predicted, everyone fell in love with power up and the idea of big stompy robots or mosters clashing in the middle of the table and pounding on each other. Legion, by providing counter charging weaponmasters, and Jaws, with opportunities to get our point efficient jacks into the lines and apply axe to face. Even the WG theme is "anti-jack" optomized - with most lists focusing on minimizing the number of POW 10s and 12s and maximizing rockets and finding ways (Vlads) to tune them further up.
2. The problem is the emerging Meta
Well it was fun while it lasted. There are at LEAST three things that are going to push mixed arms and bring back infantry to the game. How much this push will be is both subject to debate and varies by meta. But the more competitive and larger your meta you have to think about.....
A) Ghost Fleet. I refuse to write anything more about this but you should anticipate at LEAST 20 infantry models and often close to 30 on the table in most GF lists. B) Grymkin. While there are "beast heavy" builds most Grymkin armies will have AT LEAST one unit and I would submit the most competitive will have at least 2. That means 15+ infantry models on the table. C) Trenchers. Now admittedly I have all of ONE game of experience into it but I think you will see it on the table. We will have to see the CID and the extent to which Seige3 stays the same (and how well Madox/Stryker 3 will synergize to tune the trenchers up to be effective infantry on the table. Dug in, stealth, and trenches on demand are important.
Taken TOGETHER it suggests that people will start to need to build, in a 2 list format, at least some sort of "dudes be gone". The "challenge" is that our current "dudes be gone" theme - WG - is challenged by the above. Absent S2 it doesn't RFP from range. We don't have a caster who universally removes stealth. After the Joe Nerf (damm PP) even under S&P/HoF you will have a hard time scalping out DEF 17 dug in trenchers.
Now we DO have "options". You could, for example, run S1 and who cares about cover when you have frozen everything including shield guards. You could use the Gun Carriage to great effect - especially under someone like B3. But things get more constrained than we enjoyed during year 1 - when we had a plethora of choices and great themes in the "robot vs. Robot" meta.
Now POTENTIALLY the arcane theme solves a bunch of this with Spray ponies, bad santa (original) and Ternions. Less possibly but still in realm of possibilities, the MoW theme if they really tune up the bombers (double shot?) would allow you to run THAT as your DUdes be gone.
But until then I agree. There are reasons (dudes be gone) to go out of theme so you can apply magic, RFP, sprays and shots, steal and clouds in a meta where there is some value in that.
|
|
kaos
Junior Strategist
Posts: 268
|
Post by kaos on Aug 7, 2017 20:42:17 GMT
At the start of mk3 I remeber the insane merc choices everyone was sporting.
For example the duo alten / kell, Reinholdt, Eyriss 1, ecc.
Where are they now?
I (barely) remeber Alten had a nerf, but what it was? Still has grievous wounds and reposition 3". Bokur is still a valid shield guard (even if overshadowed in Khador by sacrifical pawn possibilities) and eventually ragman is still good.
There is no love for mercs anymore? Alexia? Versh?
|
|
|
Post by sand20go on Aug 7, 2017 21:46:27 GMT
At the start of mk3 I remeber the insane merc choices everyone was sporting. For example the duo alten / kell, Reinholdt, Eyriss 1, ecc. Where are they now? I (barely) remeber Alten had a nerf, but what it was? Still has grievous wounds and reposition 3". Bokur is still a valid shield guard (even if overshadowed in Khador by sacrifical pawn possibilities) and eventually ragman is still good. There is no love for mercs anymore? Alexia? Versh? The nerf to Alton was increasing his cost AND my making Garg. immune to grevious wounds (I am not sure if the same applies to colossals and too lazy to look up). In a dude's be gone build (see above) all those models have a roll. Versh, for example, will easly earn back his points into ghost fleet. A VERY viable build if you think you can handle jack heavy builds with the other list you have is a sorscha's 13 build where those and a bunch of other guys are with her.
|
|
kaos
Junior Strategist
Posts: 268
|
Post by kaos on Aug 9, 2017 9:19:34 GMT
I tried to build sorscha1 out of tier and I ended up with one unit, some jacks and a bunch of mercs. I used wgi command and I was able to slot 2 mortars, 9 rockets, 2 destroyers and snipers. Free points are very nice and they really help. Also I think mercs were made a bit too antisynergic. To make ayanna and Holt work for example it's 12 points. And apart some missing characters jacks, you usually have in tier everything you need to minmax your list into brutal efficiency. It's kinda difficult to build outside themes, I wish mercs were more cost efficient because looks like their advantages are kinda counterbalanced by the sheer amount of extra bodies/guns you can get building in tier. Exception is building vs cryx lists where the magic weapons do come very handy.
|
|
|
Post by Netherby on Aug 9, 2017 11:20:33 GMT
I tried to build sorscha1 out of tier and I ended up with one unit, some jacks and a bunch of mercs. I used wgi command and I was able to slot 2 mortars, 9 rockets, 2 destroyers and snipers. Free points are very nice and they really help. This wasn't because of free points though. It was because you no longer were using the Merc options you wanted in the list. The maximum 'free' points you can get in WGK is 14. So in your above list the only difference would be the 2 mortar teams if you made the same list out of theme. Was sacrificing your Mercs worth the two Mortar Teams?
|
|