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Post by welshhoppo on Jul 29, 2017 10:34:23 GMT
Uhm after the karchev box spam decline, I think the louder questions answered are rockets and butcher3. Because there are few or no things capable of taking butcher 3 into face and survive the slaughter. I think i'll be back to him as main caster. The only problem is missing the reliable upkeep removal of eyriss 2 and considering if playing in theme is also worth losing the cheap shield guard and Orin midwinter spell hate. He surely looks good in winter guard command and legion of steel. Well you have Ruin for upkeep removal. And sac pawning winter guard make a very good shield. Depending if they change themes to bring in mercs then it could solve Orin too. I'm not sure on LoS with B3. He has nowhere to hide and he doesn't like being shot at that much.
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Post by Netherby on Jul 29, 2017 18:49:43 GMT
The only reliable upkeep removal we get now is Ruin. The other options were nerfed. E2 just makes them take d3 damage if they don't want to lose the upkeep. Ruin can also do the job of Orin if you can manage to get souls on it.
B3 is really a WGK caster. Sac Pawn fixes most of his bad match ups.
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kaos
Junior Strategist
Posts: 268
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Post by kaos on Jul 29, 2017 20:19:09 GMT
I think ruin is an awful defensive upkeep removal since you either need to keep him on the back and in case of butcher bonk one of the dogs on the head,most likely killing him. I mean isn't a so big loss, but mostly he need to be at the right place in the right time. He's wonderful go remove arcane shield but I don't know if it's also so good at removing crippling grasp.
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Post by Voodoogk on Jul 29, 2017 21:13:18 GMT
My experience is before DNC sometimes you couldn't drop her into something during a 3-5 round tournament. You also need to take a&h to make her pow 12s pow 14s. But I've written whole posts about her in the past. I stopped putting her into my lists since I kept running into the aforementioned problem. But if you fall under the right category she'll kill you dead.
I'm currently running b3 5 jacks and I2 Rockets+conquest. I won polycon with it, so probably more reliable. I'm not sure what I'm taking to arizona open, I might bring grymkin, been having some fun with them, but maybe just sticking with what I know best for now.
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Post by smoothcriminal on Jul 29, 2017 23:35:59 GMT
As far as questions go B3 is definitely our best one.
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Post by Netherby on Jul 30, 2017 0:19:48 GMT
I wouldn't go as far as saying B3 is our best caster. He is probably the caster that benefited the most from getting themes, with WGK making him playable into almost anything.
He doesn't really ask questions of your opponent though. He says: "Okay so you brought some fancy shenanigans army with the most broken combinations you could find. But is it immune to being hit in the face with an axe multiple times? Let us see..."
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kaos
Junior Strategist
Posts: 268
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Post by kaos on Jul 30, 2017 5:08:54 GMT
Well looks like we just run the full circle. We started from sorscha 2 and butcher 3 and the end of mk2 and we're going back there. At least we can say the fan of competitive options is much wider than before.
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Post by welshhoppo on Jul 30, 2017 11:24:10 GMT
Well looks like we just run the full circle. We started from sorscha 2 and butcher 3 and the end of mk2 and we're going back there. At least we can say the fan of competitive options is much wider than before. Its the circle of life!
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kaos
Junior Strategist
Posts: 268
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Post by kaos on Jul 30, 2017 13:41:22 GMT
I'm now imagining the monkey Rafiki from Lion King tentatively lifting Butcher in full armor.
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Post by Netherby on Jul 30, 2017 19:07:17 GMT
Well, B3 was super common at the end of Mk2, but he was also mostly figured out by opponents. Mk3 came and he lost a lot of the pieces that made him really scary. But then they went and put a theme list that made him work into the pairings that were previously designed to be dropped into him. So while he's not as bonkers as in Mk2 with all the threat extensions, he can now play into a much wider variety of pairings pretty safely.
So he is in a pretty good spot. More themes may cover the weaknesses of some other casters and put them in similarly good places. But it's hard to think up pairings that make you feel overly disadvantaged when you have B3 in WGK.
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Post by smoothcriminal on Jul 30, 2017 22:06:40 GMT
I wouldn't go as far as saying B3 is our best caster. He is probably the caster that benefited the most from getting themes, with WGK making him playable into almost anything. He doesn't really ask questions of your opponent though. He says: "Okay so you brought some fancy shenanigans army with the most broken combinations you could find. But is it immune to being hit in the face with an axe multiple times? Let us see..." I'd say he's asking the question of "can you kill B3" because there no way to win while he's on the table. And with a proper support it's a hard question to answer. Theoretically it's possible to kill everything else and win on mission but I've never seen that happen, he gets too much work done each turn he's left unthreatened.
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Post by leotherat on Jul 30, 2017 22:17:49 GMT
I hate to admit it but I just lost to a skorne immortal list with a B3 jaws list. I didn't have enough attacks/magic to really get the job done. His list: conflictchamber.com/#c9201b_-0Ifk6r4v4x4C6u6u6u6H6x6x5Rft5Rft5Rft5USkorne Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] The Exalted (Pre-Release) !!! You are using a pre-release theme. (Zaal 2) Zaal, the Ancestral Advocate [+29] - Agonizer [6] - Basilisk Drake [8] - Basilisk Krea [7] - Cyclops Shaman [8] Ancestral Guardian [0(5)] Ancestral Guardian [0(5)] Ancestral Guardian [5] Hakaar the Destroyer [0(7)] Void Spirit [4] Void Spirit [4] Immortals (max) [15] - Extoller Advocate [4] Immortals (max) [15] - Extoller Advocate [4] Immortals (max) [15] - Extoller Advocate [4] Paingiver Beast Handlers (min) [5] My list: conflictchamber.com/#c3201b_-0xdI7q7s7seQ8fhF8n8n8r8y878G8G8eKhador Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Jaws of the Wolf (Butcher 3) Kommander Zoktavir, The Butcher Unleashed [+22] - Devastator [14] - Kodiak [13] - Kodiak [13] - Ruin [17] - War Dog [3] Greylord Forge Seer [0(4)] Manhunter [0(4)] Manhunter [4] Widowmaker Marksman [4] Yuri the Axe [6] Battle Mechaniks (max) [5] Kayazy Eliminators [5] Kayazy Eliminators [5] Widowmaker Scouts [8]
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Post by Netherby on Jul 30, 2017 22:23:01 GMT
The Zaal2 Immortals spam is a bit of a sleeper power list.
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Post by Armchair Warrior on Jul 31, 2017 3:08:35 GMT
I've playedaginst Zaal 2 immortal spam. Tough list, but your butcher list should have felt like it had game into it. Not an autowin.
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Post by leotherat on Jul 31, 2017 12:10:52 GMT
It didn't feel like an autoloss to me but turn 2 he ate all my jacks except my devastator. The lack of magic weapons hurt a lot since he went incorporeal and charge my jacks through my other jacks. My one shining moment came when I RFP'd a dozen or so of his troops with Butcher and told him "No souls for you!" due to SoD. The look on his face was priceless.
So what do people drop against this list and still have left for Ghost Fleet, Oracles, etc.? I could certainly use the help and info. It would also help if you explained your tactics for your lists as well.
Thanks
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