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Post by sand20go on Jul 28, 2017 16:36:42 GMT
Was thinking about this after posting about Hark Jack bricks.
It strikes me that the most powerful lists in WM ask "unique" questions. By that I mean that they CAN be covered (Ghost Fleet; Haley2 especially in MK2) but that the build to do so is "specialized". That means, in SR, that your second list is has the hardest of lifts because it has to cover so much else in the game.
Now I think that PP has dialed back these "questioneers". GF still does (do you have "anti recursion, anti ghost shots, magic, and debuff removal and enough clock to get through my horde?") but generally this has been one of the improvements MK2 to MK3.
Now Hark at the start (as did Karchev) asked a good question. Box spam. But it wasn't REALLY unique and if you answered Hark you also answered most convergence builds, the Cygnar Jack build, Amon builds, the sad excuse for Fist in MK3, etc. etc. So you were not asking your second list to do a serious lift.......your "armor cracker" did the job.
But that got me thinking.
Now first, least we forget, a standard response in this topic is "we are the Answer faction". There is a lot of truth there. Because of our amazing casters that have a lot of rounded abilities we often have the ability to answer a lot of questions much more than others. But I don't want to go there before we explore the flip side.
Our "list" (pre theme) that asks a pretty unique question is Zerkova 2. The question it asks is whether, if you build FULLY around theme, if you can survive a ridiculous threat range of POW 12 magic sprays. Pre Feat you threaten - WORST CASE - things within 20 inches of a Ternion. The Outriders threaten further. While there is SOME anti-magic in the meta it isn't THAT great - the Book being, by far, the thing that stands out the most to me in a world where Mulg or Banshee just isn't that common (and even there the limited anti-magic bubble is workable.)
A "full" complement for her of a Full unit of Ponies and 3 units of Ternions and 2 Bad Santas would run you 49 points. That leaves a significant amount of other points to complement - from doomies to encourage shots other than at your greylords to Destroyers or Behemoth to shoot casters that you freeze or an Alton and E1 package to really dial up your chances of being able to kill casters. You might even drop in the TAC+Valachev so that you get a few shots of better killing power. But I am returning to the idea of thinking whether a full bore Z2 list - asking a relatively unique question that would often give you an immediate advantage?
(BTW - it seems to me that MANY turns you are in a position where your opponent could be forced to camp nearly their entire stack. ARM 19 casters are NOT that common...and, at some point, you put so many sprays into them that you eventually can win)
Thoughts? Experience several plays? I know Vadook (sp) was running Z2 for a while in SR pairing - I wonder about his experiences. And perhaps especially if paired with, for example, the Loud Chris Vlad2 list that handles the armor attrition game pretty darn well.
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Post by cageyj0nny on Jul 28, 2017 16:49:57 GMT
I know Jim gradwell on the england knights team has been known to run zerk2 with ternion and he's obviously really good.
Who knows, it might be so snowflakey that you catch a load of people off guard and do really well with it.
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Post by leotherat on Jul 28, 2017 17:02:02 GMT
You know if you run that list into GF it's going to get intetesting real fast. Charge a unit of Revanents with the horses battle mage means that you get to spray into a 2nd unit, reposition, feat = spray whatever is left. Maybe something like this? conflictchamber.com/#c3201beW0deQhF7w8hgcd18a8aKhador Army - 75 / 75 points (Zerkova 2) Obavnik Kommander Zerkova [+24] - Juggernaut [12] - Ruin [17] Greylord Forge Seer [4] - Behemoth [25] Koldun Lord [4] Winter Guard Artillery Kapitan [3] Greylord Outriders (max) [20] Greylord Ternion [7] Greylord Ternion [7]
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Post by sand20go on Jul 28, 2017 17:31:28 GMT
You know if you run that list into GF it's going to get intetesting real fast. Charge a unit of Revanents with the horses battle mage means that you get to spray into a 2nd unit, reposition, feat = spray whatever is left. Maybe something like this? conflictchamber.com/#c3201beW0deQhF7w8hgcd18a8aKhador Army - 75 / 75 points (Zerkova 2) Obavnik Kommander Zerkova [+24] - Juggernaut [12] - Ruin [17] Greylord Forge Seer [4] - Behemoth [25] Koldun Lord [4] Winter Guard Artillery Kapitan [3] Greylord Outriders (max) [20] Greylord Ternion [7] Greylord Ternion [7] And I think you could free up even more points. Drop the WGAK and then up Behemoth under Z2 herself. Drop Jugger. That gives you 15 more points. Which means you could take, for example, a second bad Santa and TAC+Valachev. Under feat those TAC threat 8+4+10 or 22 inches and very good chance you are setting their caster on fire. Or with those 15 points add in Alton (for Hordes) and E1 (for everything) and a tinker for healing up your jacks. You could also go (interesting build but a point over) Lug and Brun - using immunity to cold and Countercharge (sadly not friendly faction so you can't Freezer Lug).
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Post by maleficoru on Jul 28, 2017 18:53:28 GMT
I really love the idea of Z2 going for maximum threat overload to that end my fav build currently is: (Zerkova 2) Obavnik Kommander Zerkova - Behemoth - Sylys Koldun Lord Koldun Lord Greylord Outriders (max) Greylord Outriders (max) Greylord Ternion Greylord Ternion Greylord Ternion One Unit of outrides goes up a flank the other sits close to Z2 then on feat turn the close unit (with mark btw) runs up and acts as spray targets for the rest of the army. While it is a bit of a one trick pony it maximizes the question: Can you deal with this many range 20+ threats on my feat turn?
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Post by sand20go on Jul 28, 2017 19:06:49 GMT
I really love the idea of Z2 going for maximum threat overload to that end my fav build currently is: (Zerkova 2) Obavnik Kommander Zerkova - Behemoth - Sylys Koldun Lord Koldun Lord Greylord Outriders (max) Greylord Outriders (max) Greylord Ternion Greylord Ternion Greylord Ternion One Unit of outrides goes up a flank the other sits close to Z2 then on feat turn the close unit (with mark btw) runs up and acts as spray targets for the rest of the army. While it is a bit of a one trick pony it maximizes the question: Can you deal with this many range 20+ threats on my feat turn? +1. Why I probably will get another unit of Outriders. I really want to try this build - seemingly answering in a HUGE way a ton of Grymkin and of course all of Cryx. Vlad2 Chris D's build for lists with a strong presence of armor. I want to build by second outrider unit ANYWAY to match her studio scheme of lots of red striping.
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Post by leotherat on Jul 28, 2017 19:49:52 GMT
You have to watch your clock with all those sprays.
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Post by maleficoru on Jul 28, 2017 19:59:09 GMT
You have to watch your clock with all those sprays. True, however most of the time you are only seriously spraying on feat turn which is usually turn 2 or 3 you cant let the match turn into an attrition game or you lose anyways.
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Post by Netherby on Jul 28, 2017 22:42:29 GMT
The list is a solid threat until you lose all your ponies I think you probably need E1 to make sure they can't just full camp and plow forward? Basically the biggest problem I see is that it only asks one question. If you can't assassinate you're just going to slowly lose.
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Post by smoothcriminal on Jul 28, 2017 23:58:50 GMT
I don't think the question of "can you stand X inches from my stuff" is good enough. One doesn't even need to stand away from everything, you can camp and tank a unit of ponies easily.
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Post by Netherby on Jul 29, 2017 0:03:15 GMT
You need to include A&H, Ragman, Hatchuck for PoW 18 Sprays.
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Post by sand20go on Jul 29, 2017 0:06:21 GMT
The list is a solid threat until you lose all your ponies I think you probably need E1 to make sure they can't just full camp and plow forward? Basically the biggest problem I see is that it only asks one question. If you can't assassinate you're just going to slowly lose. Sure. But again, if you play ghost fleet into S2 you kinda slowly lose. PLay Haley2 into something like Lylth2 and it can be a problem. No one is saying there are NOT answer to this. It is definately a one trick pony <rim shot "be here all week, 2 shows on Sunday">. But you definately have a chance to eliminate a huge amount of infantry and your assassination threat is present nearly the whole game. The principal issue is can you get it done with POW 14s and 12s. That is a big (huge?) issue. But it does seem you have "options" here.
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Post by Blargaliscious on Jul 29, 2017 3:40:20 GMT
Was thinking about this after posting about Hark Jack bricks. It strikes me that the most powerful lists in WM ask "unique" questions. By that I mean that they CAN be covered (Ghost Fleet; Haley2 especially in MK2) but that the build to do so is "specialized". That means, in SR, that your second list is has the hardest of lifts because it has to cover so much else in the game. Now I think that PP has dialed back these "questioneers". GF still does (do you have "anti recursion, anti ghost shots, magic, and debuff removal and enough clock to get through my horde?") but generally this has been one of the improvements MK2 to MK3. Now Hark at the start (as did Karchev) asked a good question. Box spam. But it wasn't REALLY unique and if you answered Hark you also answered most convergence builds, the Cygnar Jack build, Amon builds, the sad excuse for Fist in MK3, etc. etc. So you were not asking your second list to do a serious lift.......your "armor cracker" did the job. But that got me thinking. [SNIP] It's posts and threads like this that make the Khador forums great. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise. Now, my fellow kommanders, go kill in the name of the motherland.
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Post by borderprince on Jul 29, 2017 5:30:38 GMT
Was thinking about this after posting about Hark Jack bricks. It strikes me that the most powerful lists in WM ask "unique" questions. By that I mean that they CAN be covered (Ghost Fleet; Haley2 especially in MK2) but that the build to do so is "specialized". That means, in SR, that your second list is has the hardest of lifts because it has to cover so much else in the game. Now I think that PP has dialed back these "questioneers". GF still does (do you have "anti recursion, anti ghost shots, magic, and debuff removal and enough clock to get through my horde?") but generally this has been one of the improvements MK2 to MK3. Now Hark at the start (as did Karchev) asked a good question. Box spam. But it wasn't REALLY unique and if you answered Hark you also answered most convergence builds, the Cygnar Jack build, Amon builds, the sad excuse for Fist in MK3, etc. etc. So you were not asking your second list to do a serious lift.......your "armor cracker" did the job. But that got me thinking. Now first, least we forget, a standard response in this topic is "we are the Answer faction". There is a lot of truth there. Because of our amazing casters that have a lot of rounded abilities we often have the ability to answer a lot of questions much more than others. But I don't want to go there before we explore the flip side. Our "list" (pre theme) that asks a pretty unique question is Zerkova 2. The question it asks is whether, if you build FULLY around theme, if you can survive a ridiculous threat range of POW 12 magic sprays. Pre Feat you threaten - WORST CASE - things within 20 inches of a Ternion. The Outriders threaten further. While there is SOME anti-magic in the meta it isn't THAT great - the Book being, by far, the thing that stands out the most to me in a world where Mulg or Banshee just isn't that common (and even there the limited anti-magic bubble is workable.) A couple of thoughts, first on Zerkova2, then on other questions: Zerkova2 I'm not convinced that simply Pow12 sprays, with a high threat range, are enough of a question. It's very good infantry clearing, but not great assassination, at least while the enemy is very inconsiderately doing things like implementing their own plan and whittling down the available models. I suppose the trick might be to force the threat of sprays to push the opposing caster to focus camp against the sprays, but the real assassination threat is an arc noded Spectral Fire? Other thoughts In the context of SR, I suspect one of Khador's biggest questions is having a wide range of playable models, enabling two very, very different lists and forcing opponents into difficult list chicken. We can have different types of high-ARM/box lists (all jacks, or jacks + MoW - they play differently). We can also have one high ARM/box list and one warrior heavy list. I'm not convinced that there actually is that much infantry hate in much of the meta now (Cygnar excepted), so warrior spam might also work. Irusk2 + minimum battlegroup, lots of WGI and a WG artillery train could be an interesting question - can you handle 40-60 warrior models (some of them tough), all while having FFE mortar shells (and maybe some more shooting from jacks) dropped on you? Some lists probably can handle that, but do you want to drop that list if the alternative is a jack spam Khador list? We can also still manage a pretty good stealth + DEF skew with Kayazy.
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kaos
Junior Strategist
Posts: 268
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Post by kaos on Jul 29, 2017 9:09:48 GMT
Uhm after the karchev box spam decline, I think the louder questions answered are rockets and butcher3. Because there are few or no things capable of taking butcher 3 into face and survive the slaughter. I think i'll be back to him as main caster. The only problem is missing the reliable upkeep removal of eyriss 2 and considering if playing in theme is also worth losing the cheap shield guard and Orin midwinter spell hate. He surely looks good in winter guard command and legion of steel.
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