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Post by themusicalcake on Jul 27, 2017 15:09:13 GMT
How viable are elemental trolls, given that you can stick two in your lists and (if you're in ADR) you can adjust them to counter lists efficiently?
What is your favorite elemental troll? Why? What "element" would you like to see get a troll?
Bonus question, as I am a Warmachine player before Hordes but I love Trolls almost as much as my robot babies, why does lightspam feel less viable in Hordes and Warmachine? Is it because of the inverted point system and lack of power up equivalent, or is it because of costs?
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mattmcd
Junior Strategist
Posts: 521 
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Post by mattmcd on Jul 27, 2017 15:22:00 GMT
I think the Slag troll takes it for me. Storm troll is a close second.
I personally play best in attrition games so I love models that trade up like the Slag troll. I also love the models that start the trade well by taking two to kill such as Earthborns and bouncers.
The storm troll has game into both jacks (with disruption causing headaches that effect attrition games) and warrior models (with arcs). His animus making the caster immune to electrical is also the most valuable in the current meta.
Ice troll is situational as well, but can be very good when the right buffs are brought along.
The winter troll can only really do work against infantry in a Gunny list, although I've yet to test him out with a rat 6 through the HHH veteran leader ability. It's still not exciting.
Pyre troll is still bad IMO. Maybe he needs a 4" AOE or +1 pow still because the only reason I ever even consider him is to light the fire Eaters.
I think with the Northkin theme having free upkeeps and more fury being available to casters with awaken the stone it's possible for a Ragnor light spam list to surface. Cycling pulverizer for 2 fury a turn is just plain good. The difficulty is that they get shot off of the table. I've been checking through some merc/minion options to help deliver them if those changes go live.
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Arcaux
Junior Strategist
Posts: 724
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Post by Arcaux on Jul 27, 2017 15:31:18 GMT
The storm troll is amazing. I play one in both lists in my pair currently.
The Slag troll is overrated. Found out today that even with rage and the stone strength buff on the charge it has a 49% chance to kill a standard Khador heavy.
That's basically it's one job and it doesn't do it without all those buffs and a free charge.
Winter Troll: I think he will be great with CID changes
Pyre Troll; Super underwhelming still even at 8 points but good fo fire eaters. Not good vs heavies, not good vs infantry.
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Post by elricaltovilla on Jul 27, 2017 15:41:44 GMT
I love the idea behind the elemental trolls, and I kind of wish that they had been the focus of our new battle box instead of the one we got, but I don't think they're super viable. Storm troll has potential for infantry clearing, but I've always been disappointed with how the slag troll tries (and IMO fails) to trade up. I often find myself wishing trolls were just a bit more self sufficient.
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mattmcd
Junior Strategist
Posts: 521
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Post by mattmcd on Jul 27, 2017 15:50:00 GMT
In my attrition lists I'm always bringing along help to trade up or trade 2:1.
Doomie 3 does this with his feat, Doomie 2 with Wild Aggression, Grissel with boundless charge, Ragnor with Pulv, Calandra's feat, blood lure etc.
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Post by tiberius on Jul 27, 2017 16:21:13 GMT
I always get good work from my slag and pyre trolls. My main opponent right now is on a CoC kick so the slag troll eats everything in that army. Pyre troll with an admittedly small AOE that lights stuff on fire is usefull to take out jamming units, high defense spam and just put something with a lucky scatter onto something important. I have yet to get a good use out of the lightning troll or the winter troll, though admittedly I have not used the winter troll much.
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Post by Trollock on Jul 27, 2017 19:00:13 GMT
... The Slag troll is overrated. Found out today that even with rage and the stone strength buff on the charge it has a 49% chance to kill a standard Khador heavy. That's basically it's one job and it doesn't do it without all those buffs and a free charge. ... A standard Khador heavy comes no where near to one rounding another Khador heavy either. A 10 point thing is not meant to one round another 10 point thing. Just add in a Bomber to shoot things once or twice and the slag will have no trouble finishing it off. As for the original question, i think most troll lights are fairly bad on their own, but they CAN be buffed up to do a lot of work. My favorite caster to do this with is Grissel 1. She can have them do great damage by giving them a free charge and an extra attack and rage... and stone strenagth... and calamity. You may think that you are spending a whole lot of resources on buffing a 7-10 point model to go in and kill a 10-15 point model, and you are correct. The thing is though that the "support" in this case is a frigging Mauler, and he can easily kill one, and some times even two heavies in a single round himself. You send in the cheap stuff to initiate a piece trade, and then the Mauler can finish it. This is a viable tactics for sure against those lists with a whole bunch of heavies. The ones with 10 marauders are rel tough for sure, but 7 khador heavies is no problem for a list like this. If they bring 10, you sort of have to go around the problem. try and win on scenario or clock, or have enough control that you can get multiple turns of work out of your things. As for my favorite light... I have used the Swamp troll very often lately. He has some great utility and most importantly he has natural pathfinder to go contest. The new Winter troll might be really good for this too. |
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mattmcd
Junior Strategist
Posts: 521
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Post by mattmcd on Jul 27, 2017 19:03:26 GMT
Just for clarity, do you mean the ice troll? Or do you really mean the winter troll with the spray?
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Post by Trollock on Jul 27, 2017 19:06:34 GMT
nope, i meant the winter troll. by "new" i meant the RAT 5 and pathfinder version we see in CID. I think that is probably a better beast than the ice troll.
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mattmcd
Junior Strategist
Posts: 521
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Post by mattmcd on Jul 27, 2017 19:13:56 GMT
nope, i meant the winter troll. by "new" i meant the RAT 5 and pathfinder version we see in CID. I think that is probably a better beast than the ice troll. Wow. Maybe I have to get him on the table soon. I've still been basically ignoring him. |
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cuberic
Junior Strategist
Posts: 129
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Post by cuberic on Jul 27, 2017 19:46:37 GMT
I have only tried the slag and pyre troll in mk3. The pyre is super disappointing, even if he goes to 8pts I don't see myself bringing him any time soon.
The Slag is fairly decent. I use him with Gunny and he does perform at what a 10pt beast should perform at. With rage he can seriously cripple a heavy warjack by himself or even destroy it if it has been previously damaged. Into hordes he can still swing up to pow 17 (stone+rage) and that will hurt any warbeast. Since I bring him as my anti gunline drop the slag troll has no problem dealing with the weaker gun warbeasts.
If all our other elementals had the same +1 mat, strength, and armor along with assault as the slag troll they may become more enticing. Except leave the Swamp troll where he's currently at. I really like what he brings to the table, I just don't own him.
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Arcaux
Junior Strategist
Posts: 724
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Post by Arcaux on Jul 27, 2017 20:12:35 GMT
... The Slag troll is overrated. Found out today that even with rage and the stone strength buff on the charge it has a 49% chance to kill a standard Khador heavy. That's basically it's one job and it doesn't do it without all those buffs and a free charge. ... As for my favorite light... I have used the Swamp troll very often lately. He has some great utility and most importantly he has natural pathfinder to go contest. The new Winter troll might be really good for this too. It took you so long to come around to the swamp troll  Proud of you! |
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Post by Trollock on Jul 27, 2017 20:30:32 GMT
It took you so long to come around to the swamp troll Proud of you! Haha. I actually started when you wrote that article. I am still not really convinced he is actually good, but i have been replacing one heavy with two lights in PoD (so 4 heavies + 2-3 lights) and it has been working fine. I like that you get more attacks that way, but i often miss the 5th heavy when there is a lot of ARM around  |
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Arcaux
Junior Strategist
Posts: 724
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Post by Arcaux on Jul 27, 2017 20:33:47 GMT
It took you so long to come around to the swamp troll Proud of you! Haha. I actually started when you wrote that article. I am still not really convinced he is actually good, but i have been replacing one heavy with two lights in PoD (so 4 heavies + 2-3 lights) and it has been working fine. I like that you get more attacks that way, but i often miss the 5th heavy when there is a lot of ARM around I actually haven't played Swampy since the start of April. I keep taking the Storm Troll for the extra point. I do agree with you though, the new winter troll looks amazing, especially with Gunnbjorn. Charge with Pathfinder, kill, killshot, boosted hit roll spray with crit freeze from Guided Fire.... WOOOO!!!!!!! |
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Post by Trollock on Jul 27, 2017 20:42:38 GMT
I actually haven't played Swampy since the start of April. I keep taking the Storm Troll for the extra point. I do agree with you though, the new winter troll looks amazing, especially with Gunnbjorn. Charge with Pathfinder, kill, killshot, boosted hit roll spray with crit freeze from Guided Fire.... WOOOO!!!!!!! What do you use the Storm for? I tried it a bit, especially against cygnar, but i found that even though the animus was nice in theory, all of their models were immune to its gun. This was before Heavy metal was a thing though, so maybe that is what have changed? |
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Proud of you!