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Post by macdaddy on Aug 3, 2017 1:31:42 GMT
my issue with kreoss2 is that he doesn't deliver infantry (outside of IR), especially exemplar. Better Errants and Medium-based Exemplar (Errants deliver themselves but even with feat don't do a ton except against like griffons, and the medium-based exemplar currently aren't tanky enough to deliver themselves) would do a ton to help him hit the table, as would some way to make Interdiction better for something other than KE spam and jack spam. I'm waiting for the day I can happily break him out with all the footslogging dudes with massive pauldrons. Have a whole army of massive shield sized shoulder pads!
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demonic
Junior Strategist
Posts: 649
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Post by demonic on Aug 3, 2017 2:05:32 GMT
If we are going to compare the destroyer to vanquisher, destroyer has 2 more hit boxes and 1 more armor with 1 less rat on a gun that is suppose to miss; it also has arcing fire. His ranged weapon also has 4 more inches of reach, yet does not have continuous fire (which can be considered quite the boost if infantry themes becomes the new thing). His axe has 1 more damage on it along with critical amputation, making it rather lethal against jacks and beasts of any calliber as well. The Vanquisher's melee weapon, instead, has an additional inch of reach, thresher, and ignores shield bonuses. As far as all around utility, the destroyer takes the cake, for sure. He's harder to kill, can bombard infantry, and has enough umph to slash up even the heaviest of jacks and beasts with ease. As far as raw killing potential, that goes to the Vanquisher, which can light up medium infantry and cavalry to help bring down their boxes and has the thresher attack that can annihilate an entire row of engaged infantry. If you could forfit movement, thresher everything to get you out of engagement, then fire the gun, I'd say the vanquisher would be worth more than a templar (15pts), but if it can't then it even falls short of the 14pt destroyer.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Aug 3, 2017 2:09:27 GMT
Wow. You don't know Khador at all. Also I wonder how you play Menoth. Like do you just never take the choir or something?
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Provengreil
Junior Strategist
Choir Kills: 12
Posts: 850
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Post by Provengreil on Aug 3, 2017 2:10:20 GMT
If we are going to compare the destroyer to vanquisher, destroyer has 2 more hit boxes and 1 more armor with 1 less rat on a gun that is suppose to miss; it also has arcing fire. His ranged weapon also has 4 more inches of reach, yet does not have continuous fire (which can be considered quite the boost if infantry themes becomes the new thing). His axe has 1 more damage on it along with critical amputation, making it rather lethal against jacks and beasts of any calliber as well. The Vanquisher's melee weapon, instead, has an additional inch of reach, thresher, and ignores shield bonuses. As far as all around utility, the destroyer takes the cake, for sure. He's harder to kill, can bombard infantry, and has enough umph to slash up even the heaviest of jacks and beasts with ease. As far as raw killing potential, that goes to the Vanquisher, which can light up medium infantry and cavalry to help bring down their boxes and has the thresher attack that can annihilate an entire row of engaged infantry. If you could forfit movement, thresher everything to get you out of engagement, then fire the gun, I'd say the vanquisher would be worth more than a templar (15pts), but if it can't then it even falls short of the 14pt destroyer. it's the 10 inch range that's the real issue. those bombards can, under most curcimstances, get 2 shots easy, or one and then their own pick of melee engagements. Against ranged ooponents their armor will often bear them out for a lot longer, since range tends to lack the punch of coming in swinging. The Vanquisher will get one shot, then get charged.
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Post by Swampmist on Aug 3, 2017 2:11:36 GMT
the vanquisher's melee weapon hits as hard as an unchoired crusader, his range weapon will get one shot in most games, and me brings 0 utility. At 17 points. He's a bad jack, and beyond piggyback meta there's not really a reason to take him over other options (and even then scourge is better.)
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Post by paradox on Aug 3, 2017 2:20:14 GMT
If we are going to compare the destroyer to vanquisher, destroyer has 2 more hit boxes and 1 more armor with 1 less rat on a gun that is suppose to miss; it also has arcing fire. His ranged weapon also has 4 more inches of reach, yet does not have continuous fire (which can be considered quite the boost if infantry themes becomes the new thing). His axe has 1 more damage on it along with critical amputation, making it rather lethal against jacks and beasts of any calliber as well. The Vanquisher's melee weapon, instead, has an additional inch of reach, thresher, and ignores shield bonuses. As far as all around utility, the destroyer takes the cake, for sure. He's harder to kill, can bombard infantry, and has enough umph to slash up even the heaviest of jacks and beasts with ease. As far as raw killing potential, that goes to the Vanquisher, which can light up medium infantry and cavalry to help bring down their boxes and has the thresher attack that can annihilate an entire row of engaged infantry. If you could forfit movement, thresher everything to get you out of engagement, then fire the gun, I'd say the vanquisher would be worth more than a templar (15pts), but if it can't then it even falls short of the 14pt destroyer. it's the 10 inch range that's the real issue. those bombards can, under most curcimstances, get 2 shots easy, or one and then their own pick of melee engagements. Against ranged ooponents their armor will often bear them out for a lot longer, since range tends to lack the punch of coming in swinging. The Vanquisher will get one shot, then get charged. It's possible to play vanquishers and get multiple shots without getting charged. Its about you list and tactics. Its not a one-shot jack. But yes, compare to SPD5 RNG12 reckoner, same POW, better MAT and PS, more/better effects. Reckoner is solid at 16, and better than reckoner in many ways. It just lacks the AoE. You really cant compare vanquisher to templar though. Not even nearly the same role.
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Post by Swampmist on Aug 3, 2017 2:35:34 GMT
also, the reckoner has 1 higher melee pow, which matters a ton
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spideredd
Junior Strategist
Summer Gamer
Posts: 588
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Post by spideredd on Aug 3, 2017 9:22:56 GMT
And then you get an upgrade to MAT 6 on the whole chassis, you know, seeing as to how it's supposed to be equivalent And then you get upgraded to Rat 4 across all your jacks as well! Making void based demands based on nothing is fun! It's Hilarious. Glad you played along.
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Post by macdaddy on Aug 5, 2017 14:09:13 GMT
Wow. You don't know Khador at all. Also I wonder how you play Menoth. Like do you just never take the choir or something? C'mon rowdy can't you just let's us complain here about our bad jacks No one is saying the Destroyer is good. Also please remember the Chior is a required 4 point utility upgrade effectiveley increasing all our jacks cost by 1 to make them work
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Alealexi
BattleBox Champ
Burning heritecs and wracking as always... it's a personal hobby.
Posts: 55
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Post by Alealexi on Aug 9, 2017 21:51:18 GMT
Hey, I think Will Hungerford just confirmed the Christmas CID for August 24 in the new primecast.
I do hope they add Zealots & Skyhammers to the CID if they add Faithful Masses.
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Post by W0lfBane on Aug 9, 2017 22:32:08 GMT
It was implied they were gonna revisit some themes in that cid rather than put new ones in
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demonic
Junior Strategist
Posts: 649
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Post by demonic on Aug 10, 2017 2:15:09 GMT
tbh, what they need to start doing is putting caster limits on themes, particularly excluding some. An example would be if they come out with the Skorne Exhalted theme, they should bar Zaal2, as his tournament level list is already an almost exclusive exhalted list. There are still casters that would shine with such a theme without being OP, however, like Mordikaar and Zaal1. There are other combos, like with Denny's Ghost Fleet as an example, that need this type of barring. It's not that the theme is broken, it's that the combination between the two is broken x.x;
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Post by Cryptix on Aug 10, 2017 2:35:08 GMT
tbh, what they need to start doing is putting caster limits on themes, particularly excluding some. An example would be if they come out with the Skorne Exhalted theme, they should bar Zaal2, as his tournament level list is already an almost exclusive exhalted list. "Sure, let's bar the exalted caster from being in the theme he works well with because he has good synergy with the models in the theme where he works with." Next thing you know you'll be banning Zerkova2 from the Greylord theme because she synergizes too well with them.
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demonic
Junior Strategist
Posts: 649
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Post by demonic on Aug 10, 2017 5:59:36 GMT
never, it's a decider of when skill becomes less of a factor due to broken rules. If Zerkova2 and greylord stomped everything's ass with just the synergy he has with them I'd be a little adverse, but I've never heard of any ultimate Zerkova2 + greylord theme combo x.x
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Post by dicebedamned on Aug 10, 2017 12:22:50 GMT
tbh, what they need to start doing is putting caster limits on themes, particularly excluding some. An example would be if they come out with the Skorne Exhalted theme, they should bar Zaal2, as his tournament level list is already an almost exclusive exhalted list. There are still casters that would shine with such a theme without being OP, however, like Mordikaar and Zaal1. There are other combos, like with Denny's Ghost Fleet as an example, that need this type of barring. It's not that the theme is broken, it's that the combination between the two is broken x.x; I agree. Preventing SOME casters from being in EVERY theme would be a good idea. Currently you simply take the best caster in the best theme. It would also allow them to dial the theme bonuses up a bit to help sub-par casters level the field some vs their S/A rank counterparts.
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