zeffid
Junior Strategist
Posts: 163 
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Post by zeffid on Jul 21, 2017 8:27:13 GMT
So out of the blue we suddenly have CoC in the local meta and that is giving me now an ugly headache.
My trouble is:
No 1 and clearly - TEP - this thing puts a tonn of 10" sprays that kills or infantry..OR..Jacks. Look: our average infantryman is easily hit with RAT 5 on 3 dice. Then if he is not shieldwalled - there are 4 sprays. If he is - 3 sprays but they hit more models. So this thing can easily clear the 10" around it. Jacks suffer as well - 3 sprays on 4 dice dmg can reasonably criple a system.
Then it can also reposition (Iron Mother) to 13" - out of melee range of most things that can hurt it.
That's not all - shooting this thing is also very frutile. 3 free sac pawns and then a reasonable number of shield guards. Running quick numbers - you need 5 rocket hits under Vladimir1 to kill it...meaning 8 if no shield guards present around. This infantry concentration is expected to die horribly next turn to sprays or templates from the second TEP, right?
Ok so now I have to concentrate a substantial portion of my list to treaten this thing (17 points). Here comes the trouble 2.
No 2 - Prime Axiom - another thing that can easilly remove our jacks. I mean we have numerous tools to deal with colossals...but not when they stay away. This thing pushes a jack from 11 - so it basically stays out of treat for the remaining jacks.
No 3 - Servitors-Bots-Whatever - so imagine now a list that spawns 8 free solos per turn whose minimum value is shield guarding everything. There are other functions though. What this means is that shooting is totally ineffective.
So hopefully this doesn't look to much as a whine. What I'm looking for is some field-proven advice on how to handle this:
Random convergence caster;
Two TEPs; Axiom;
A cloud of Bots;
Some more models for remaining points.
A devastator or 2 is a very resonable choice here I think. But what's then - I'm not sure at all.
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Post by Netherby on Jul 21, 2017 10:09:26 GMT
The TEP and Prime Axiom are good models that's for sure. But CoC has very little depth. Once you figure out how to play into TEPs and Prime Axioms they really don't have anything else to fall back on.
Khador doesn't have the greatest shooting (yes, we have that one vlad list. But it's actually not that good). So it's fairly unrealistic to expect to be able to remove a TEP at range. Other factions can do it, but not us. In fact their shield guard and sac pawn spam should effect us the LEAST, because we shouldn't even be thinking about trying to shoot into anything that has half decent anti-shooting tech.
So let's talk about the TEP first. It is primarily an infantry clearing machine. Yes, it can damage jacks, but it will take it multiple rounds to actually kill one. This means infantry should for the most part stay away from them and use terrain to prevent getting shot. It can also only really choose to do one of clearing infantry or damaging jacks, so if you present it with both threats they are going to have to choose to deal with one or the other. Obviously you need to position jacks such that it can only hit one at a time and that if it does shoot a jack it's not going to get a bunch of infantry for free as well.
Scenario exists. The TEP can't stay beyond reprisal range AND contest scenario. Servitors are easily removed, you can basically score on every one of your turns if they don't commit something. Once you get into melee with it, it is scrap.
The Axiom is actually a lot easier to deal with. Preventing it dragging your jacks in just requires use of terrain, other models and things that can't be moved. It has really bad shooting for a colossal if it can't reel in your jacks and there are no single wound things for it to shoot at. So if you manage the drag threat it will either have to move up or be ineffective.
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Post by smoothcriminal on Jul 21, 2017 12:21:45 GMT
Can you provide the list pair in question? I'm guessing it's the Mother + 2x Axiom (or Axiom + 2x TEP) + servitors and Axis + light spam.
It's a hard pairing for Khador indeed since LoS is most desired against their jacks but Mother+servitors destroy LoS.
I think Vlad WGK should be good enough to handle both lists. He gets the ranged alpha and then the melee alpha with Marauders.
In fact just Marauder spam might be good enough answer. Like imagine Hark or Karchev (or Malakov2) run bunch of Marauders forward, Convergence kills like 2 (less in case of Hark/Malakov) then the rest murder all their huge bases.
If the Axis isn't in the pair then Marauder spam is definitely a solid counter.
And then there's the old tactical Khador maxim of "when in doubt apply B3".
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zeffid
Junior Strategist
Posts: 163
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Post by zeffid on Jul 21, 2017 12:28:28 GMT
Netherby, that sounds a bit too generic. Let's discuss.
- Khador shooting = bad. Actually no, the thing is that we can easily have a number of big shots that go to waste on shield guards. That Vladimir 1 list is different of course. What would work nice here is some e-leaps...we don't have that.
- TEP and hitting Jacks. So let's have a look. Clearly 1 jack won't do. You need two - then one gets dominated and TEP shoots down both over 2 turns. Add infantry in...and we have 40 points hunting down 17, right? With some chances. Positioning against sprays also require some frontage - not easy.
- Scenario - very valid. Though CoC have some free models every turn to contest. This also means you concentrate on clearing zones and start loosing on attrition. Should be very careful.
- Axiom dragging - that is not as easy as it sounds. Only obstructions and wall stop drags - not much and those need to be setup well. Clearing some other models could be not that hard, right? What can they be?
Anyway, I think a valid tactic could be to keep one TEP occupied with a sacrificial jack/unit. And press on the other one. The trick would be to also keep pressure on the Axiom, so that when you remove one TEP you already treaten it. Sounds not that easy.
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zeffid
Junior Strategist
Posts: 163
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Post by zeffid on Jul 21, 2017 12:32:57 GMT
Can you provide the list pair in question? I think let's strart with IM - she is the hardest from my PoV. I trully don't understand how you count only 2 jacks in casualties. I can easily see 6. And Karchev/Harkevich have to be very carefull themselves not to be draged screaming. |
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Post by sand20go on Jul 21, 2017 12:57:59 GMT
Hah!!!!! Loud chris's vlad2 list is great into that match up. No pulll on the shock troopers. Try to kill mother with hard flanking eliminator if you can and conquest as foundation stone since it out threats axiom. Have to weather tep shots but you got wind blast and mechanics. Apply and profit.
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zeffid
Junior Strategist
Posts: 163
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Post by zeffid on Jul 21, 2017 13:11:38 GMT
Great idea, Sand20go! Wind blast just shines there!
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Post by smoothcriminal on Jul 21, 2017 14:36:28 GMT
Vlad2 is a good idea. I think it's the actual counter. I trully don't understand how you count only 2 jacks in casualties. I can easily see 6. And Karchev/Harkevich have to be very carefull themselves not to be draged screaming. Colossal kills 1 Marauder. Teps and stuff can maybe kill the other. That's it. If it's Hark then the jacks can even survive with several boxes, maybe even with cortex and 1 arm intact. I haven't play against Convergence but I played against Haley 2 + colossal + domination with mass jack a lot, Mother seems to be inferior to Haley in terms of attrition but she can Feedback+ping you to death but that can be easily countered with taking Karchev if you're worried about Hark squishiness. To not get dragged take 2x Devastators/Kodiaks and block the caster with bodies/clouds. Karchev can probably just camp and tank the colossal if worst comes to worst. |
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Post by Netherby on Jul 21, 2017 17:19:53 GMT
Huh? 1 jack kills a TEP easily... We have lots of jacks that cost less than a TEP and will kill it in one round if you can deliver them.
The Axiom cannot kill more than one heavy a turn. Sure it can pull two in, but without some serious damage buffs it doesn't have the output to kill both of them.
As to blocking pulls, we have some jacks that can't be pushed along with Shock Troopers. There is also LoS, clouds and terrain that block LoS work just as well as a wall does.
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Post by blindfury on Jul 21, 2017 21:51:15 GMT
Zerkova I.
Feat, in 14 no shoot or run, profit. Also clouds for the win.
I have never had problems with coc using her.
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