kaos
Junior Strategist
Posts: 268 
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Post by kaos on Jul 18, 2017 10:51:15 GMT
So Dark host is a thing, as well as ghost fleet, so probably time to shuffle stuff a bit. It's two days I am looking at this and this is what I saw: -Extremely high armor infantry units -Hitting hard due to a total -4 ARM possible debuff -Problematic engine, with incorporeal, lots of boxes and creating machine wraiths So basically a ignorant all armor list will not work so well... Then I took a look at jaws and can be what we are looking for. Fast, nimble infantry, capable of dealing with high armor. Snipers. Forgeseers with magical weapons to deal with incorporeal. So here what I come up with: conflictchamber.com/#c3201b_-0x477w7q0d0dhFhF8r8A8B8G8G8eKhador Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Jaws of the Wolf (Sorscha 1) Kommander Sorscha [+29] - Behemoth [25] - Devastator [14] - Juggernaut [12] - Juggernaut [12] Greylord Forge Seer [0(4)] Greylord Forge Seer [0(4)] Widowmaker Marksman [4] Kayazy Assassins (max) [15] - Kayazy Assassin Underboss [4] Kayazy Eliminators [5] Kayazy Eliminators [5] Widowmaker Scouts [8] The big question (even for me) it's why Sorscha 1. My answer (could even be ill conceived) is: because vs infantry she has a time walk feat. So pop in, freeze everything, then send kayazy. After that, infantry is still frozen and you basically get the kayazy to hit two times (and an extra turn in which you can send in jacks and such). Behemoth can even be marshalled by one Forge seer to have sweet magical blessed weapons. This can be useful to shoot down armor buffed bane riders. If the opponent isn't able to fit everything into prowl, widowmakers and marksman can shoot at targets of opportunity and eventually shut down pesky ark nodes. So let me know, do you think it has game? |
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Post by zerosequence on Jul 18, 2017 11:06:37 GMT
I like your base list.
But I actually think this is a better start:
Sorcha2
Behemoth
Siege Crawler
A+H w/Valachev
Sniper boat
The rest to taste
Siege Crawler negates stealth and has extra dice damage against wraith engines. Aiyana can give it magical. S2 feat does double damage. Little guns shoot pirates.
Snipers take out heavy armor babes. Use shatterstorm to RFP dudes.
Behemoth can shoot dudes, wraith engine with Aiyana or if it attacked, or go after Denny because siege Crawler stripped stealth.
Once Mercs get rolled into theme take this in Jaws, add Kossites and Kell. Profit.
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Post by smoothcriminal on Jul 18, 2017 11:34:50 GMT
I think you have too many jacks on Sorscha. Something should definitely go on Seer or leave the list. I'd give each Seer a Destroyer. It's still debated which jacks are better on caster and which are better on Seers, my opinion is Behemoth should go on caster.
Otherwise:
Yes, Sorscha is a good caster against any infantry spam list as stationary immunity is rare.
No, kayazi aren't that good against infantry because they have 9-10.5" threat while a lot of melee infantry has either 11" or 12". They are okay because high def allows them to dodge hits quite well, but I'd probably take less kayazy overall and a unit of Kossites, they are very good with Sorscha. If you take kossites Yuri also becomes an option in an otherwise optionless list, fire and forget him with boundless and he can kill a lot of dudes with tresher, especially good if you let them bunch up on devastator first.
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kaos
Junior Strategist
Posts: 268
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Post by kaos on Jul 18, 2017 12:20:30 GMT
I like your base list. But I actually think this is a better start: Sorcha2 Behemoth Siege Crawler A+H w/Valachev Sniper boat The rest to taste Siege Crawler negates stealth and has extra dice damage against wraith engines. Aiyana can give it magical. S2 feat does double damage. Little guns shoot pirates. Snipers take out heavy armor babes. Use shatterstorm to RFP dudes. Behemoth can shoot dudes, wraith engine with Aiyana or if it attacked, or go after Denny because siege Crawler stripped stealth. Once Mercs get rolled into theme take this in Jaws, add Kossites and Kell. Profit. I looked at this and I'm not convinced. The siege crawler negates stealth on one model only. Isn't going to help the sniper boat, since well, you kill one model and then what? I don't think AoE blasts are going to really cut it. Sorscha 2: Why you need more damage when you're mostly facing single wounds infantry? A&H + Valachev: looks horribly expensive, the kiss is a most welcome ability but the amount of resources spent for that is really worth it? Also I think bane host will be played mostly with scaverous or aspyxious 2 to increase the stealth models or the ARM buff / debuff. Regarding the kayaxy threat range, it's equivalent to the banes, with Kayazy having a higher base speed so theoretically having a small advantage. All considering banes need to come foward since you got a small advantage in terms of shooting and you can try to erode the units from range while Cryx do not have such options usually. Regarding Yuri, it can be a good option, even if I see him as fragile. He did not see serious game in mk2 and I don't see what changed in mk3. |
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Post by Netherby on Jul 18, 2017 13:54:33 GMT
Assassins actually have a bit of trouble killing the high armour bane knights.
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kaos
Junior Strategist
Posts: 268
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Post by kaos on Jul 18, 2017 14:31:33 GMT
I just reviewed my stance. Kayazy is a no.
i thought anatomical precision would work on banez.
Which other unity/infantry can hit them hard enough? Looks like a high def infantry is required to minimize the pain, but also something that can decently hit back and gain an advantage.
Are pikemens going to cut it? Doom reavers looks still too expensive and fragile. Man o Wars are slow and prone to be shredded to ribbon due to the ARM debuff.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Jul 18, 2017 14:45:17 GMT
Assassins actually have a bit of trouble killing the high armour bane knights. Well they hit at Pow 13 with Gang. Thats actually very high POW for light infantry. Not sure what people except. |
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Post by smoothcriminal on Jul 18, 2017 14:46:03 GMT
Def 15, mat 8, pow 12 is still gonna be good. You're gonna be charging or backstabbing anyway because it's easy with parry. Out of our melee infantry kayazy is the best option to fight other infantry in melee.
Now going melee vs. melee against Cryx might not be a good idea in itself.
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kaos
Junior Strategist
Posts: 268
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Post by kaos on Jul 18, 2017 15:10:41 GMT
Ok but which one are the alternatives, considering that banez got prowl and you can even maximize that playing Aspy 2?
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Post by zerosequence on Jul 18, 2017 17:25:29 GMT
I like your base list. But I actually think this is a better start: Sorcha2 Behemoth Siege Crawler A+H w/Valachev Sniper boat The rest to taste Siege Crawler negates stealth and has extra dice damage against wraith engines. Aiyana can give it magical. S2 feat does double damage. Little guns shoot pirates. Snipers take out heavy armor babes. Use shatterstorm to RFP dudes. Behemoth can shoot dudes, wraith engine with Aiyana or if it attacked, or go after Denny because siege Crawler stripped stealth. Once Mercs get rolled into theme take this in Jaws, add Kossites and Kell. Profit. I looked at this and I'm not convinced. The siege crawler negates stealth on one model only. Isn't going to help the sniper boat, since well, you kill one model and then what? I don't think AoE blasts are going to really cut it. Sorscha 2: Why you need more damage when you're mostly facing single wounds infantry? A&H + Valachev: looks horribly expensive, the kiss is a most welcome ability but the amount of resources spent for that is really worth it? Also I think bane host will be played mostly with scaverous or aspyxious 2 to increase the stealth models or the ARM buff / debuff. Regarding the kayaxy threat range, it's equivalent to the banes, with Kayazy having a higher base speed so theoretically having a small advantage. All considering banes need to come foward since you got a small advantage in terms of shooting and you can try to erode the units from range while Cryx do not have such options usually. Regarding Yuri, it can be a good option, even if I see him as fragile. He did not see serious game in mk2 and I don't see what changed in mk3. I agree with your points. I am approaching this as Cryx has Ghost Fleet and Bane themes as pair. My Sorcha2 suggestion is more geared to ghost fleet but if you customize to taste I think it could be universal Cryx drop. |
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Post by borderprince on Jul 18, 2017 17:51:25 GMT
I still like Zerkova1 in Jaws as a Cryx drop. I've talked about my preferred list here. That was in the context of Ghost Fleet, but it's a list I thought about as a general one which would be decent into Cryx. Zerkova1 can get the Kayazys' defence to very high levels via careful cloud placement and gives some decent offensive spells (which can be handy), together with upkeep removal (albeit not in the best way possible). Also is protected against Cryxian spells and the feat is a nice one - without charges. Essentially, she can blunt, or at least take the edge off, the offensive powers of a Cryx list. And you definitely want at least one Forge Seer-marshalled jack in any anti-Cryx list. Probably Behemoth (if you're willing to do it), a Destroyer or Marauder (anti-Wraith Engine). |
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Post by tesoe on Jul 18, 2017 18:39:17 GMT
I think Irusk is going to be very strong into those lists. Battle List, and Airbust specifically are great against those lists. And Irusk2's feat allowing you to ignore clouds will probably be very strong into the bane theme.
A Butcher1 gunline is also going to probably be pretty strong depending on how well you can get LOS.
Outrider are going to be strong with any caster. Assault Kommandos are going to also be strong. A lot of Cryx shoots is acid, Blackbane melee is fire, and the ability to remove tough will be good against Banes.
Edit: Doom Reavers also play strong into those lists if you can keep them from being shot off the board.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Jul 18, 2017 18:58:56 GMT
I think Irusk is going to be very strong into those lists. Battle List, and Airbust specifically are great against those lists. And Irusk2's feat allowing you to ignore clouds will probably be very strong into the bane theme. A Butcher1 gunline is also going to probably be pretty strong depending on how well you can get LOS. Outrider are going to be strong with any caster. Assault Kommandos are going to also be strong. A lot of Cryx shoots is acid, Blackbane melee is fire, and the ability to remove tough will be good against Banes. Edit: Doom Reavers also play strong into those lists if you can keep them from being shot off the board. Tough removal is living only  The gas grenades need to be reworked. |
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kaos
Junior Strategist
Posts: 268
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Post by kaos on Jul 18, 2017 19:04:43 GMT
I think we are going somewhere but we're still far from the ultimate solution. So viable casters could be sorscha1 and irusk2. Viable units:
Kayazy is battle lusted or charging
Widowakers
Outsiders (they can possibly struggle vs riders and knights).
We can possibly add vlad2 as possible caster due to hand of fate, great on outriders or kayazy and cloud removal abilities.
Good jacks:
Devastator
Behemoth
Marauder as possible anti BE jack
What else?
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kuarnix
Junior Strategist
Posts: 145
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Post by kuarnix on Jul 18, 2017 19:24:24 GMT
I think Irusk is going to be very strong into those lists. Battle List, and Airbust specifically are great against those lists. And Irusk2's feat allowing you to ignore clouds will probably be very strong into the bane theme. A Butcher1 gunline is also going to probably be pretty strong depending on how well you can get LOS. Outrider are going to be strong with any caster. Assault Kommandos are going to also be strong. A lot of Cryx shoots is acid, Blackbane melee is fire, and the ability to remove tough will be good against Banes. Edit: Doom Reavers also play strong into those lists if you can keep them from being shot off the board. I agree. I also am not really sure how much shooting will be in these lists overall, but it will certainly be limited to battlegroup models - Doom Reavers can probably get there, they will have to roll the dice on Tough or on rolling that 7 to hit Bane Knights on the charge. You guys may also want to consider that you are going to be seeing Gaspy3 running this theme, Ashen Veil works really well with Prowl (not to mention making them DEF 16 against charges by living models) and he will also enable that -4 ARM swing (and Hex Blast). But for what it's worth for you guys to dojo a bit since I haven't actually seen the numbers, here's what you're looking at in terms of ARM to crack: Knights 18 melee / 20 ranged Warriors 15 melee / 17 ranged Riders 18 melee / 20 ranged And of course with Skarre2 or Scaverous that could go up another +2 on one unit; however, you can cut through that with blessed. Shooting the Wraith Engine off the table isn't a bad idea if you can do it early in the game and early in the turn, but I think if that approach becomes common these lists are going to start including an Inflictor to take hits for it if they don't already. |
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