kuarnix
Junior Strategist
Posts: 145
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Post by kuarnix on Jul 17, 2017 19:07:28 GMT
So if the levies/harrowers get added to the cid process for pirates whats the community consensus on those crab jacks? Just a straight point reducing or a rework of some kind. Myself personally would like to see both go down to 15pts and the levy go to rof2 instead of rof d3. Although an interesting in theme fix would be to give ROF rolls +1 to skew the rof in our favor while in theme. and keep the point reduction as standard. Honestly I think the Harrower needs more work on it than the Leviathan. I used to think the Leviathan was overpriced but now I am not so sure - I was actually about to start a thread about it and basic battlegroups, I use one in almost every list I make and it is seriously the MVP most games. If you can get a ARM debuff on the target a single shot is okay, but if you get three... hot damn does it brutalize things (and colossals can have it the worst, it's easy to apply Dark Shroud as well as -2/3 from a spell and be rolling flat damage). Like seriously, I want to buy another one (just holding out for a kit in the new plastic...it gets hot here, I don't need melted crabs!). But Guided Fire with these things? Bleh, so ridiculously nasty. But yeah, if you are running a 'caster like Skarre1/2 that doesn't have that kind of debuff, it feels underwhelming - and the random RoF here is particularly annoying because you are relying on spending focus for extra damage, rather than applying the debuff. The Harrower though suffers from being really dependent on what your opponent is bringing. It's pretty 'meh' unless you're looking at a bunch of infantry - especially living infantry - on the board (in which case it can be decent to great), and it's shooting is the weakest of the three on this chassis. It probably just needs a point reduction (or the gun could go up to higher range / pow). This is the one that really needs work.
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kuarnix
Junior Strategist
Posts: 145
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Post by kuarnix on Jul 17, 2017 19:15:20 GMT
So if the levies/harrowers get added to the cid process for pirates whats the community consensus on those crab jacks? Just a straight point reducing or a rework of some kind. Myself personally would like to see both go down to 15pts and the levy go to rof2 instead of rof d3. Although an interesting in theme fix would be to give ROF rolls +1 to skew the rof in our favor while in theme. and keep the point reduction as standard. Harrowers don't need anything except for a change in the meta, they're okay as they are. Leviathans are fine powerlevel wise, random RoF is just a massive NPE for me so I leave mine at home. I really hope the Sharde Isle theme force doesn't have a jack benefit. Cryx has tons of living pirate infantry that are likely to be included in this theme from Black Ogrun, to Bloodgorgers, to Satyxis, to the new living human pirates. The theme should give benefits to the living models that you wouldn't normally take and not to the Crabjacks, because if it doesn't all you're going to do is fill jack points with the best Crabjack or colossal and fill out the rest of the army with Satyxis Raiders. I want the theme's rules to give me a reason to not just jam Satyxis and call it a day. Yeah, I suspect that will be the case with the Sharde Isle theme force. Actually, looking at the Cryx theme forces, most of them don't really have a compelling reason to bring warjacks. Even Infernal Machines seems like you can really build it one of two ways (and it's more dependent on the 'caster) - maximize thrall bodies and enjoy Hyper-Aggressive on 1-2 helljacks, or take ambushing Mcthralls (and maybe Carrions if you really want to) and try to really maximize Hyper-Aggressive (though using like, Inflictors to force hits on 'jacks). Even in the second case though there isn't really a benefit to taking the points in 'jacks, in comparison to a true warjack theme force like Heavy Metal or Jaws.
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Post by schostoppa1 on Jul 17, 2017 20:45:10 GMT
Harrowers don't need anything except for a change in the meta, they're okay as they are. Leviathans are fine powerlevel wise, random RoF is just a massive NPE for me so I leave mine at home. I really hope the Sharde Isle theme force doesn't have a jack benefit. Cryx has tons of living pirate infantry that are likely to be included in this theme from Black Ogrun, to Bloodgorgers, to Satyxis, to the new living human pirates. The theme should give benefits to the living models that you wouldn't normally take and not to the Crabjacks, because if it doesn't all you're going to do is fill jack points with the best Crabjack or colossal and fill out the rest of the army with Satyxis Raiders. I want the theme's rules to give me a reason to not just jam Satyxis and call it a day. Yeah, I suspect that will be the case with the Sharde Isle theme force. Actually, looking at the Cryx theme forces, most of them don't really have a compelling reason to bring warjacks. Even Infernal Machines seems like you can really build it one of two ways (and it's more dependent on the 'caster) - maximize thrall bodies and enjoy Hyper-Aggressive on 1-2 helljacks, or take ambushing Mcthralls (and maybe Carrions if you really want to) and try to really maximize Hyper-Aggressive (though using like, Inflictors to force hits on 'jacks). Even in the second case though there isn't really a benefit to taking the points in 'jacks, in comparison to a true warjack theme force like Heavy Metal or Jaws. Those are really good points. I guess the next question is with skarre3's spell list (speculation with all we have) is she a good fit for mass living model pirates them. I think she can go either way. Dash, and deceleration, and guided fire but is pretty focus hungry. deceleration will almost always be cast every turn in the current shooting meta, then she will have to choose either guided fire or dash (no way is she an 8 focus caster on a huge base) So then we have to decide what living models maximize dash and decel vs a heavy battle group (that will be focus starved) and currently i think thats still satyxis. So then how do we give benefits in theme for living models without widening the gap in raiders favor?
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Deller
Junior Strategist
I’m on a Boat
Posts: 605
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Post by Deller on Jul 17, 2017 21:24:00 GMT
Yeah, I suspect that will be the case with the Sharde Isle theme force. Actually, looking at the Cryx theme forces, most of them don't really have a compelling reason to bring warjacks. Even Infernal Machines seems like you can really build it one of two ways (and it's more dependent on the 'caster) - maximize thrall bodies and enjoy Hyper-Aggressive on 1-2 helljacks, or take ambushing Mcthralls (and maybe Carrions if you really want to) and try to really maximize Hyper-Aggressive (though using like, Inflictors to force hits on 'jacks). Even in the second case though there isn't really a benefit to taking the points in 'jacks, in comparison to a true warjack theme force like Heavy Metal or Jaws. Those are really good points. I guess the next question is with skarre3's spell list (speculation with all we have) is she a good fit for mass living model pirates them. I think she can go either way. Dash, and deceleration, and guided fire but is pretty focus hungry. deceleration will almost always be cast every turn in the current shooting meta, then she will have to choose either guided fire or dash (no way is she an 8 focus caster on a huge base) So then we have to decide what living models maximize dash and decel vs a heavy battle group (that will be focus starved) and currently i think thats still satyxis. So then how do we give benefits in theme for living models without widening the gap in raiders favor? Considering she has Reienforcments living, yes. Dash is disgusting with Satyxis, Deceleration make Bloodwitches even more resilient to Blast damage, and Draconic Blessing making Satyxis Raiders immune to fire takes away their weakness to being carpet bombed by fire AoEs. Everything we've seen about her that isn't Guided Fire makes Satyxis absolutely disgusting. The easiest way to make theme benefits that don't buff Raiders is to make them like the Mechanithrall Ambush mechanic, either tied to a specific unit, or tied to an archetype that the Raiders aren't. Maybe all Medium based models get 4+ tough or No Sleeping on the Job. This buffs the Bloodgorgers & Ogrun, but not the Humans or the Satyxis. Maybe a single Sharde Isle Pirate unit gains an extra rule like Ambush. Maybe a SIP unit starts the game with a buff like how Oracles hands out Apprition to a different unit every turn, only our buff is stronger, like Prey, but can't be hot swapped and can only go to the one specific unit. There's a lot of ways to write theme force benefits that incentivize playing a variety of different living units, PP just needs to get creative.
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Grimolf
Junior Strategist
Posts: 246
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Post by Grimolf on Jul 17, 2017 23:53:51 GMT
I assume Skarre 3 will be one of the first structure casters. She's got two cannons and a reinforcement ability, and... she's on a boat. Did you notice that the ship is actually floating on souls in the picture. It looks mobile! I'm thinking she's a battle engine, not a structure.
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Post by Gamingdevil on Jul 18, 2017 6:27:52 GMT
I'm not counting on crab jacks going in the CID at the start, but maybe we would be able to make an argument for them. I think the Leviathan is definitely playable, but I'm not a huge fan of random ROF on something you have to give focus. Giving it Reload [1] while keeping its cost (16 points is still a lot) would be really awesome and would make it so you can never waste focus at least.
Harrower I like on paper but I've never been able to bring myself to fielding it. It pays a lot of points for that fully boosted Ghost Shot potential and I feel it's only worth it with a caster with Infernal Machine, because otherwise it will get outthreated by its preferred target. But if you have Infernal Machine you also really like a Kraken and Stalkers. I'm not sure what to do with it.
What would be awesome is if Kharybdis would get caught in a crab jack crossfire and stopped being so overcosted, maybe pick up Gunfighter.
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Grimolf
Junior Strategist
Posts: 246
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Post by Grimolf on Jul 18, 2017 15:23:53 GMT
What would be awesome is if Kharybdis would get caught in a crab jack crossfire and stopped being so overcosted, maybe pick up Gunfighter. Yes! I agree with that!
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Post by darkshroud on Jul 18, 2017 16:31:05 GMT
What would be awesome is if Kharybdis would get caught in a crab jack crossfire and stopped being so overcosted, maybe pick up Gunfighter. Yes! I agree with that! yea, i honestly havent heard about him since he dropped. but i guess thats most our jacks.
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Post by Swampmist on Jul 18, 2017 21:39:05 GMT
I couls see Khar going into the theme as the "Pirate Character Jack," at which point he will probably see a minimum of a 2-point cost reduction.
Also, keep in mind that the new Solo has a battle plan for quick work, which happens to look quite good on the new pirates (especially with minifeat assault)
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Post by gobber on Jul 20, 2017 6:28:08 GMT
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Post by tiberius on Jul 26, 2017 13:48:50 GMT
Holy cow this stuff has me excited. Skarre on a big boat with cannons and looks awesome. I really feel like they have fleshed this out well and am excited to see the rules for the stuff. I am surprised there is not more discussion about the individual solos or other spoiled things.
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