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Post by auraco on Jul 9, 2017 23:31:53 GMT
Yesterday was the TEQ, The Tournoi en Équipe du Québec, for those of you who know how to speak french  I was on the wining team with a double Strakhov pairing. The event was a 4 round tournament in teams of 3. It was played with what we know of SR2017 including the info from the insiders so mercy rule is just 5 points instead of 6. The terrain on the tables was quite heavy and a lot of tables had fire clouds and acid pools, not all of them but enough for them to get noticed. List 1 Winterguard Kommand Strakhov1 Conquest Grolar Juggernaut Juggernaut Full Winter Guard Infantry +CA +3 rockets Kovnik Joe Winter Guard Mortar List 2 Legion of Steel Strakhov2 Juggernaut Kodiak Full Ulhans Full Black Dragon +CA Full RedFang +CA Great Bears IFK IFK Markov Round1 The pit2 Strakhov2 vs Fyanna2 Oracles This one was kind of a quick game, I got first turn, put IR on the Ulhans, quicken on the regular pikemen, the blackfang advance move, my opponent played very carefully and stayed out of the zone on turn 1, he shot some of the quickened pikemen. I was expecting my opponent to feat turn two but to go way more forward, that was ok with me Strakhov2 plays a mean scenario game and that means a better scenario game for me, so turn two the regular fang charge his line, I can get 4 pikemen to the naga, 1 to the neraph with fury, I kill the naga and the pikemen who gets to the Neraph does some damage, the pikemen mini feat pretty forward. Strakhov advance and feats, his feat clips half the regular fang, all the black dragons, the great bears, all the solo and 2 ulhan who moved forward to be between the juggernaut on this side and an angelius. My oponent feat on second turn, kills some of the forward redfang and an angelius kills a ulhans, my oponend doesn't do much else. On my turn I was kinda lucky, A fully loaded juggy and 2 ulhans killed an angelius, Markov and a last standed great bear killed an other, I was able to clear all the zone and kill his objective. On his turn my oponend kills some stuff and does his best to contest, but he doesn't have much in both rectangular zone and he doesn't have a way to kill Strakhov. On my turn I clear the zones and win by scenario. Round 2 Standoff Strakhov1 vs Harbinger in Exemplar theme This one was a big grindfest, I spend the game shooting his exemplar while trying to keep a minimum number of exemplar and vengers charging me, I ended up losing the two juggernaut, had a badly battered grolar with only his arm remaining and two winterguard, but I was able to take the lead in scenario thank to camping my zone and sending repositioning winterguard in his zone every turn. Strakhov was also able to score in one of the circular zone on one turn and I ended up winning by scenario when destroyed his objective and scored in my zone while contesting his again, that game went to turn 6 I think. Round 3 Spread the net Strakhov1 vs Lylyth2 (yeah you read that correctly) in oracles He had two ravagores in his lylyth list at list selection so I couldn't risk the legion of steel drop at list selection Quick game, on turn two his dices rolled hot and he was able to kill my conquest thanks to his feat and pincussion, two ravagores, a bolt thrower and lylyth was all it took to do the job. My oponent did a mistake though, his caster was more than 21 inches away from Strakhov, so no feat charge shenanigeans to get the grolar there, but my oponent did place his naga in feat range of strakhov and close enough for my grolar to charge the naga and be in range of Lylyth, the two juggenaut dealt with the angelius in front of the grolar and the juggy that did the killing blow had overrun so the grolar was able to get to the naga an lylyth, the charge attack was the punch, the hammer went on lylyth who was camping one, I rolled 5 gun attack with the grolar, didn't even need to use focus for extra hammer attack to kill her. Round 4 Breakdown Strakhov1 vs Lylyth2 (again, it was a weird day) in oracles This one was even quicker than the last one, on turn two my oponent gives me an open lane to lylyth2 with the grolar, who missed his boosted charge attack with the hammer (needed a boosted 7) and didn't manage to kill Lylyth, on his turn my oponend kills Strakhov. My teammate both won so we won the event anyway. I might have gone full retard with te dual Strakhov pairing and as much as I like Strakhov2 in legion of steel the list has a lot of bad match ups, so this one will probably go, the Strakhov1 list is still very solid, I might change it for my Jaws of the Wolf version they both have their strenght and weakness but are both very solid generalist list that can deal with all kinds of list. I think I will need to go back to B3 as the Ghost Fleet drop (I was lucky to dodge the Ghost Fleet that day) and to deal with incorporeal spam, that Skarre1 double wraith engine list is a thing. B3 and Ruin can really help with that match up and they are no slouch in general. So yeah, the event organisers told us they were in contact with Discount Gaming so the list should appear there soon. For those who like find it refreshing to see something else than Harkevich jackspam and Vlad1 rocketspam If you guys have questions about the list feel free to ask, I've played both a lot and am fairly confident when putting them on the table. Now off to think about a new B3 list to deal with the meta bending cryx list. |
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Growl
Junior Strategist
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Post by Growl on Jul 10, 2017 0:37:41 GMT
Thanks for the summaries and the great job on the games! I have like no experience with either strakhov so it's funny to see you running both lists with him. Cool moves with the Grolar!
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Post by sand20go on Jul 10, 2017 1:39:51 GMT
EXCELLENT!!!
QUick question - was your ghost fleet strategy dodge? I love him but I am very worried about that match up (and thus I have B3 as a foundation piece right now).
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Post by auraco on Jul 10, 2017 2:30:27 GMT
For that tournament yeah pretty much, since it's a team event I felt it wasn't necessary to have a ghost fleet drop. We did play against a team with some super cheezy cryx list, Denny1 Ghost fleet and Skarre1 Incorporeal spam, so we just threw one of our player under the bus and me and the remaining teammate had to win our games, which we did.
I still have to test it, but I want to try my jaws of the wolf version into ghost fleet.
Strakhov1
Behemoth
Grolar
Torch
Juggernaut
Maraudeur
Forge Seer
Maraudeur
Forge Seer
Marksman
Eliminators
Eliminators
Strakhov should be ok against casterkill with occultation on himself, ghost fleet has plenty of models to trigger overrun, both the grolar and torch are very dangerous to Denny if they can get to her, so the one that's not crippling grasped should try to do the work. The marshalled maraudeur is there to deal with the battle engine and maybe a ghost pirate or two, Superiority isn't a battlegroup spell if I'm not mistaken so that maraudeur can threathen 14 inches on Strakhov's feat turn, with crush, one power booster and the free charge from the feat it should be able to go battle engine hunting without any issues, if crippling grasp goes on him I'm ok with having both Torch and the Grolar be able to do their thing. All theory, still need to play the game to see if the theory is sound.
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Post by skathrex on Jul 10, 2017 6:49:47 GMT
So first of Awesome Result. Love seeing a Strakov Pair. I am playing a huge team tournament in Germany in August and Strakov1 is going to be my main caster there, so I have been testing him a lot lately. Question time? Reasons for the WG-Theme? Because you have experience with it? Do you feel SK1 and SK2 cover each others matchups? I mean you got Legion 3 times which I consider to be good machtup for both casters/lists With SK2 I am pretty torn, because he is really bipolar with his matchups, because they are either great or really bad it feels like. In SR17 with the 5 CP mercy rule he can be a real good Scenario caster who when going first often wins without a real fight. Do you seem him in a similar light? Feedback to Strakov1. I think the Wg-Theme could still be really solid, just because while Strakov really cranks everything Melee up to 11, what he really needs is some sort of range support to clear his lanes for him (against good opponents that know Strakovs tricks). So I am testing more rng Jacks or Widowmakers in Jaws with him atm. To your idea of Strakov1 into GF, I tried it only a few games and I don't think it works. You will catch bad/unexperienced players off guard and randomly win on turn 2 or 3 when they are to far forward and didn't feat or didn't catch anything with the feat. The Problems are many. 1. Marauder against WE sounds like a good idea until you realize that what a marshalled Marauder doesn't like is a pistol wraith that makes him stationary. 2. Strakov isn't that safe. Its true that he doesn't get shot, but because you don't have that infantry he can just get swarmed to a point where the Warjacks can't protect him against normal charges. Not to mention the Blackbanes you really can't stop or Stalkers. On average Denny will go first and feat on turn 2, making your turn 2 very ineffective. You would have to brick to prevent landing zones for the WE and to keep him safe against Pirates charging him. At that point you are going to loose the scenario. 3. Assasination against a good player is not simple. Yes you can get overrun everywhere, which is a great feeling (but also a bit of decision overload). The problem is getting your jack threw that line of Pirates. In her feat turn she is naturally pretty safe and after that she can just bubble wrap herself in either a) pirates or b) incorp pirates to block landing zones. Finall words for Strakov1 in Jaws. I am not a fan of Marauders anymore. They are great jacks, but multibles get worse very fast for Strakov. I would always try to bring 1. Just to keep enemy BE very honest, but Strakov has a dmg problem against normal Jacks and thats where Marauders are really bad imo. So too many Maradeurs are a nice way of getting more boxes, but thats not something Strakov wants. with this list: conflictchamber.com/#c3201b_-0x7c7w7q0d0d7t7t7thFhF8r8G8GKhador Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Jaws of the Wolf (Strakhov 1) Kommander Oleg Strakhov [+28] - Behemoth [25] - Devastator [14] - Juggernaut [12] - Juggernaut [12] - Marauder [10] - Marauder [10] - Marauder [10] Greylord Forge Seer [0(4)] Greylord Forge Seer [0(4)] Widowmaker Marksman [0(4)] Kayazy Eliminators [5] Kayazy Eliminators [5] I ran constently into the trouble that I couldn't handle a lot of infantry and also couldn't handle a above average amount of Jacks/Beasts (4-5) |
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Post by UtilityCookieguest on Jul 10, 2017 8:54:16 GMT
Hi auraco,
I am running the same pairing. (dutch player here)
I contrast to what skathrex says, I actually think the JoW variant can be played in to ghost fleet. The moment Denny feats on your jacks is the moment she is dead. (assuming you can trigger overrun)
With superiority you get:
- Sp4
- +3 speed charge
- +4 feat
- overrun 4 inch
- melee range 1
Total: 16 inch
Still puts Pdenny in threat range of a jack.
Granted, I can only see this as the winning strategy because you cannot outgrind the list.
Strakov2 is great but if you are not playing in a team tournament, i'd rather have butcher 3 and some jacks/battle engine into ghost fleet. (rfp on the impacts is funny)
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Post by skathrex on Jul 10, 2017 10:29:05 GMT
@utilitycookiequest: Did you play that matchup? Because if she feats on your Jacks you have to have 1 that isn't hit in the feat, since its not only -2 speed, it also doesn't allow charges. And with SR17 she often has a obstruction in the middle of the table.
Don't get me wrong it's not nearly as bad as half of our other casters, but it's still not a matchup I WANT to play.
Her other tactic is to play defensive. In that case you need to get her arcnodes fast, while holding the line. against her infantry
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Post by utilitycookiequest on Jul 10, 2017 11:16:37 GMT
Hmm, played cryx for 4 years but somehow forgot that part...
Agreed, but in khador we really do not have THAT many options, but agreed there are better options.
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Post by welshhoppo on Jul 10, 2017 16:10:25 GMT
To be fair her old feat said nothing about no charges. Because a negative speed modifier used to prevent charging.
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Post by auraco on Jul 10, 2017 22:10:49 GMT
Lol it seems every thread get hijacked by ghost fleet discussion theses days. So yeah, I went full retard on that day and hope to dodge ghost fleet, helped by the fact that it was a team even. It worked out for us. Now can we keep the discussion about ghost fleet to a minimum please, I think the issue has been discussed enough in other threads. skathrexMultiple reasons for WGK, true I'm used to playing the list, but the advance move on two jack (usually the juggernauts) allow you entire army to be pretty far on the table on turn 1, or further than most people like khador to be, superiority goes on the conquest, which then run 12'', with advance move the juggy have the equivalent of a 12'' run on the first turn, the grolar will lag a bit behind because he only had heavy boiler. the WG are also 12'' up the table. It makes for the best turn2 setup and gives a good scenario presence to the list, also some potential assassination vector if against a squishy caster. As for the match ups, I went with that mostly for fun and because I was tired of playing B3 for a while. The game I played with legion of steel I feel like I could have played with Strakhov1 instead and still have a game that is at least a 50/50 match up. Also while legion is usually a good match up for Legion of steel I played against Lylyth2 twice and the presence of ravagore with their scatter AOE was a pretty hard shut down for the legion of steel list. As much as I like the Legion of steel list I think you're right that it's very binary about it's match ups, it either utterly trashes your opponent or just dies horribly and with so few shooting options in the list it doesn't really have the casterkill out that some other list can have. Strakhov2 running legion of Steel does have the scenario out, because he's the one who gives that list the best scenario game, that's why I think he's the best caster to run the list. He can save a bad match up just by jamming people out of the zone. Irusk2 runs a grindy version of the list but with much less scenario presence, I still think Strakhov2 is better just because he can play the scenario game. |
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Post by sand20go on Jul 10, 2017 23:25:09 GMT
Question - do you think the Strak1 (who I have BARELY played) would pair well with S1 in my uber duper MOW list. Seems like it would. Interested in your thoughts ;-)
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Post by skathrex on Jul 11, 2017 6:56:48 GMT
sand20go: Its possible, but I advise against it, because you leave a huge gap for anything with enough Armor in your Pairing....so in reality sadly no. I love both casters but I don't think they go well together. auraco: GF is the boogy man, so if you bring tournament rep, everyone wants to know what the plan is for that  But its not neccisary in a Team turnament imo. I will have to start using B3 more, so I am not burned out at all^^. The reasons you mentioned is exactly the reason I am not a fan of Strakov2 in LoS anymore. Maybe I would have to dedicate more time into him, because I think he has to be the main List in your pairing with the other one covering his weaknesses, but I haven't played enough dudespam to know where exactly his weaknesses are. Strakov1 feels like he gains to much with the Forge Seers, but I could be true that the rng and speed support from the WG-Theme is more important than those. I think both lists are viable, but I am not sure which one I prefer.
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Post by auraco on Jul 12, 2017 15:45:44 GMT
I have the opposite view on Strakhov2 in legion of steel, I think he's good for a second or third list that you might drop once if you end up in a pairing where he's good against both list you're facing, but Legion of steel has way too many bad match ups to be a main list. I also have no idea what kind of army to build with Strakhov2 if you go out of legion of steel since his kit doesn't favor jack play and his spell are best for pikemen. I mean maybe Winterguard Kommand with a unit of kayazy if the current CID rules about merc stay. Maybe the MoW theme since in 7 games with the list last stand has only been significant once on one great bear and not for more than one turn. The thing that worries me about that is that I don't think the MOW theme will have as much scenario presence as the Strakhov2 list.
But yeah now that this event is done it will take a while before I get this list out again, it will probably have to wait for my next 3 list event because with D&C0 I think he makes a fantastic 3rd list, even if just to bully the list chicken process.
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Post by sand20go on Jul 12, 2017 16:43:38 GMT
Yesterday was the TEQ, The Tournoi en Équipe du Québec, for those of you who know how to speak french I was on the wining team with a double Strakhov pairing. The event was a 4 round tournament in teams of 3. It was played with what we know of SR2017 including the info from the insiders so mercy rule is just 5 points instead of 6. The terrain on the tables was quite heavy and a lot of tables had fire clouds and acid pools, not all of them but enough for them to get noticed. List 1 Winterguard Kommand Strakhov1 Conquest Grolar Juggernaut Juggernaut Full Winter Guard Infantry +CA +3 rockets Kovnik Joe Winter Guard Mortar List 2 Legion of Steel Strakhov2 Juggernaut Kodiak Full Ulhans Full Black Dragon +CA Full RedFang +CA Great Bears IFK IFK Markov Round1 The pit2 Strakhov2 vs Fyanna2 Oracles This one was kind of a quick game, I got first turn, put IR on the Ulhans, quicken on the regular pikemen, the blackfang advance move, my opponent played very carefully and stayed out of the zone on turn 1, he shot some of the quickened pikemen. I was expecting my opponent to feat turn two but to go way more forward, that was ok with me Strakhov2 plays a mean scenario game and that means a better scenario game for me, so turn two the regular fang charge his line, I can get 4 pikemen to the naga, 1 to the neraph with fury, I kill the naga and the pikemen who gets to the Neraph does some damage, the pikemen mini feat pretty forward. Strakhov advance and feats, his feat clips half the regular fang, all the black dragons, the great bears, all the solo and 2 ulhan who moved forward to be between the juggernaut on this side and an angelius. My oponent feat on second turn, kills some of the forward redfang and an angelius kills a ulhans, my oponend doesn't do much else. On my turn I was kinda lucky, A fully loaded juggy and 2 ulhans killed an angelius, Markov and a last standed great bear killed an other, I was able to clear all the zone and kill his objective. On his turn my oponend kills some stuff and does his best to contest, but he doesn't have much in both rectangular zone and he doesn't have a way to kill Strakhov. On my turn I clear the zones and win by scenario. Round 2 Standoff Strakhov1 vs Harbinger in Exemplar theme This one was a big grindfest, I spend the game shooting his exemplar while trying to keep a minimum number of exemplar and vengers charging me, I ended up losing the two juggernaut, had a badly battered grolar with only his arm remaining and two winterguard, but I was able to take the lead in scenario thank to camping my zone and sending repositioning winterguard in his zone every turn. Strakhov was also able to score in one of the circular zone on one turn and I ended up winning by scenario when destroyed his objective and scored in my zone while contesting his again, that game went to turn 6 I think. Round 3 Spread the net Strakhov1 vs Lylyth2 (yeah you read that correctly) in oracles He had two ravagores in his lylyth list at list selection so I couldn't risk the legion of steel drop at list selection Quick game, on turn two his dices rolled hot and he was able to kill my conquest thanks to his feat and pincussion, two ravagores, a bolt thrower and lylyth was all it took to do the job. My oponent did a mistake though, his caster was more than 21 inches away from Strakhov, so no feat charge shenanigeans to get the grolar there, but my oponent did place his naga in feat range of strakhov and close enough for my grolar to charge the naga and be in range of Lylyth, the two juggenaut dealt with the angelius in front of the grolar and the juggy that did the killing blow had overrun so the grolar was able to get to the naga an lylyth, the charge attack was the punch, the hammer went on lylyth who was camping one, I rolled 5 gun attack with the grolar, didn't even need to use focus for extra hammer attack to kill her. Round 4 Breakdown Strakhov1 vs Lylyth2 (again, it was a weird day) in oracles This one was even quicker than the last one, on turn two my oponent gives me an open lane to lylyth2 with the grolar, who missed his boosted charge attack with the hammer (needed a boosted 7) and didn't manage to kill Lylyth, on his turn my oponend kills Strakhov. My teammate both won so we won the event anyway. I might have gone full retard with te dual Strakhov pairing and as much as I like Strakhov2 in legion of steel the list has a lot of bad match ups, so this one will probably go, the Strakhov1 list is still very solid, I might change it for my Jaws of the Wolf version they both have their strenght and weakness but are both very solid generalist list that can deal with all kinds of list. I think I will need to go back to B3 as the Ghost Fleet drop (I was lucky to dodge the Ghost Fleet that day) and to deal with incorporeal spam, that Skarre1 double wraith engine list is a thing. B3 and Ruin can really help with that match up and they are no slouch in general. So yeah, the event organisers told us they were in contact with Discount Gaming so the list should appear there soon. For those who like find it refreshing to see something else than Harkevich jackspam and Vlad1 rocketspam If you guys have questions about the list feel free to ask, I've played both a lot and am fairly confident when putting them on the table. Now off to think about a new B3 list to deal with the meta bending cryx list. Auroca. Wanted to ask you about your thoughts of a slight variant to your list and whether you think, looking back at your games it would weaken you too much in the areas it performed well in. _IF_ you swap out the Grolar for Torch we would have destealth option on Denny. You would then need a hard 12 (boo), boosted, on a moving Conquest but that would be dice +1 if you scored the hit on her which you should be able to have enough focus to boost. You also, with the critical, have an option right then and there to knock her down which is a game winning condition and which is not a trivial risk for her depending on how things are spread out around her. that way you keep Strak2 for armor cracking - which remains a huge thing. (Now I agree that Grolar under Strak1 is a HUGE thing. _MAYBE_ what we do is LOSE the Juggers for a Spriggan and with the remaining 6 points go for Yuri?) |
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Post by auraco on Jul 12, 2017 19:45:43 GMT
I would never remove the grolar from the list, this jack has performed way too much for me.
In your scenario, you need toch or the spriggan to be at least 16 inches away from Denny to put a flare on her and then shoot her. At that distance if you had a grolar it could just get to her and kill her, without needing a boosted 12 (that's before considering thing like cover or concealement), the conquest will be able to trigger overrun in ghost fleet with all the pirates running around, and if the grolar gets to denny she's dead unless she was camping a lot, heck even on full focus you might be able to kill her if you roll 5 shots. The grolar threat with overrun superiority and no feat is 16'' Native pathfinder makes forest and other rough terrain like rubble irreleveant. Why go for the ranged maybe throw when you can go for the way less dicey and more efficient melee knock down?
I have yet to test the list against ghost fleet, but my Jaw of the wolf version has both a grolar and torch, and I think it has game against ghost fleet. No Spriggan an Yuri, the plan is to keep denny honest with overrun melee threat. It's the list that was already posted on this very thread. I'm not sure the WGK can deal with ghost fleet, Strakhov will be tough to kill and Denny needs to watch out for the casterkill but it's going to be a tough match up in all cases.
I could be wrong, if you test it and it works please let me know, but just in theory I can't agree with your idea.
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