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Post by drakkenblut on Jul 8, 2017 20:50:26 GMT
How viable is Neraph spam, and how many would you need to spam?
It is our cheapest heavy, and it way outperforms the next corresponding light (Nephilim Soldier) for the points. It can be compared directly to an Angelius, and it does seem to come out on top.
In eThag army, Neraphs have a ridiculous potential feat range, 10 in charge, up to 4 in from beat back, 7 in from sprint assuming it killed something, then another 7 in from feat, and 1in reach. 29in total! Raek is second best here with 22 in threat, and his feat attack is at lower MAT and much lower P+S.
Fyanna was made to piece trade Neraphs, Gallows yanks some heavy closer, Fury allows Neraph to kill armor, Admonition helps if you left one vulnerable to charges, and Overtake gives you another inch of escape with sprint. Use the Feat if several Neraphs get exposed, and you come out on top, for every Neraph lost, the opponent lost two or more heavies.
Other things that help is a Seraph for an even better threat range/retreat, as well as softening the target and lowering its DEF, and Sorc on Hellion for free charges. High DEF means Wrong Eye can help with Star-crossed. Naga is needed if the targets get buffed.
Anyone else tried multiple Neraphs? Perhaps with other warlocks? How many is too many and do you have an army build to recommend or a battle report to share?
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Post by dxman on Jul 9, 2017 0:51:42 GMT
I've been running a pair of Neraphs with Lylyth1 since the start of Mk3, when the PP forums were complaining how bad they were because they couldn't one-round a Khador heavy without help. *eyeroll* Just make sure to take a Shepherd or two so that they can dart outside of her 10" control range, then sprint back in once they've killed their target.
I've never taken more than two myself (only own two), but I know three is popular with Fyanna2. I think beyond three, you may be cutting into your overall damage-dealing potential and pushing your ability to apply damage buffs to offset its relatively low POW. Against other matchups, 1" reach and Fury 3 also starts to limit your crowd control potential. Let's explore the thought experiment anyway, though...
At POW15 and Fury 3, the Neraph needs two things to succeed: a free charge and a damage buff. In general, neither of those is particularly hard to come by in Legion, but your ability to go full-on Neraph spam would depend on your ability to apply those two things over as many models as possible. The Sorceress hands out free charges to as many Neraphs as you want with little effort, so that's almost a non-issue.
Regardless of caster choice, you'll most likely want BFS and/or a Naga. If you're taking the latter, a Bloodseer can also contribute. And don't forget the Seraph. That comes to at least 28 or 29 "auto-include" points, not counting fury management, setting aside any free theme points.
Working backwards for casters... I'd say ones that don't offer their own damage buff (or ARM debuff) are no-gos. That rules out Lylyth2 and 3, Vayl2, and both iterations of both twins. Vayl1 has Incite, but that sort of limits the Neraphs' targets to those near Vayl, negating their mobility advantage, so I'd say she's out. I personally think Bethayne has a bonkers spell list, and the Neraphs love both Cloak of Ash and Disintegrate, but I think she'd be pretty Fury-strapped in executing on this strategy. Plus, she wants troops for her feat, so cross her off the list. Both Kallus-es also really want troops for their toolkit, so they're out. Lylyth1 can hot-swap Parasite and you can get up to some shenanigans with Pursuit, but Fury 5 limits your ability to spam beasts. As fun as it is with two, I'd say pass on her if you want to take more than that.
That leaves...
Abby1 - Forced Evo is very nice and hot-swappable and Blight Burst can prevent boosting to hit. If your opponent misses an attack or two, they might not be able to one-round the Neraph, so I think success might hinge on whether you can shuffle any damaged ones around to get mileage out of the feat. I'm skeptical, though...
Abby2 - I think she's a pretty well-known quantity. Alpha Hunter and the feat. That frees up some points because she doesn't necessarily need the Sorceress. Just make sure you do enough damage on feat turn.
Fyanna2 - Again, well-explored territory. You've listed the benefits yourself.
Kryssa - Cloak of Ash is very nice and her feat boosts damage. Again, everything hinges on one turn.
Thagrosh1 - Draconic Blessing can be swapped, Fog of War and Death Shroud offer some defensive tech, and he can hand out a free Wraithbane. Hmmm... Worth exploring? Seems like a bit of a waste to use his feat on a 12 point beast though.
Thagrosh2 - He looks like he has some interesting potential with Manifest Destiny and the feat, but I've never played him, so I'm gonna punt on this one.
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Post by cainuslupus on Jul 9, 2017 8:29:07 GMT
I believe Thags2 to be our best bet because of Manifest Destiny. There were some flying circuss lists with Thags1 in the begining of MK3 tryingvto use Fog of War but it never sticked.
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Post by snotling on Jul 9, 2017 11:12:47 GMT
Nerpahs do very well, but they need a damage buff. We have a lot of those, but most are not blanket buffs. Exept for maybe eAbby, I'd say 2-3 Neraphs and then other Beasts willgenreally do better.
Also: Legion Models in general are bad, but the new nerpah/seraph are the worst models (with grotesques taking the top spot for inf) to actuall play. Its pretty much impossible to place them on the tab, without touching and moving other models all the time.^^
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Post by drakkenblut on Jul 9, 2017 11:46:02 GMT
I just thought of Hellmouth + Neraph.
Hellmouth has a threat (drag toward the mouth) range of 11 in, just about enough that it doesn|t get charged by a heavy before it can drag said heavy. Some heavies can do that, but it would be a poor exchange. So, take a couple of Hellmouths, and a couple of Neraphs, drag in heavies that get too close and Neraphs finish the job, and sprint to safety behind the Hellmouth, next turn rinse repeat. Should be enough to counter any jack wall lists out there.
You must use Neraphs for this, other beasts or infantry can kill the heavies but only Neraph sprints back to safety. Anything except for a Neraph will get charged next turn.
This should work with any Warlock, but some Warlocks will add some particular nasties to this tactic.
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Post by yourmumrang on Jul 9, 2017 14:21:24 GMT
Have always seen Neraphs as a tag-team beast. They always need something to get shit done.
One of my fav versions is something with a strong shot (read: Ravagore) putting a shot into something fully boosted then the Neraph finishing it off.
Wouldn't suggest spamming. Not really.
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Whiskie
Junior Strategist
Posts: 288 
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Post by Whiskie on Jul 9, 2017 17:18:00 GMT
I just thought of Hellmouth + Neraph. Hellmouth has a threat (drag toward the mouth) range of 11 in, just about enough that it doesn|t get charged by a heavy before it can drag said heavy. Some heavies can do that, but it would be a poor exchange. So, take a couple of Hellmouths, and a couple of Neraphs, drag in heavies that get too close and Neraphs finish the job, and sprint to safety behind the Hellmouth, next turn rinse repeat. Should be enough to counter any jack wall lists out there. You must use Neraphs for this, other beasts or infantry can kill the heavies but only Neraph sprints back to safety. Anything except for a Neraph will get charged next turn. This should work with any Warlock, but some Warlocks will add some particular nasties to this tactic. You'll never get a drag off on an opposing heavy if the opponent doesn't want you to. They can just B2B their jacks in such a way that trying to drag something in will cause one of the heavies to bump into the other. It's not worth relying on getting drags off against canny opponents. |
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Post by DanX on Jul 9, 2017 20:35:51 GMT
Neraph with attractor can help free up targets to drag with hellmouth. I mainly use thagrosh1 to kill what the hellmouth drags, while the nerpahs goes forward to free up the target. (With damage or attractor. Proteus is also good with hellmouth as his drag can get things into range of a bigger drag  |
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Post by cainuslupus on Jul 10, 2017 10:08:44 GMT
Neraph with attractor can help free up targets to drag with hellmouth. I mainly use thagrosh1 to kill what the hellmouth drags, while the nerpahs goes forward to free up the target. (With damage or attractor. Proteus is also good with hellmouth as his drag can get things into range of a bigger drag Except you are trading Neraph for nothing and hoping that you hit one Mat6 hit. And Neraph must be 9" away (plus buffs). I would call it bad play. Relying on Hellmouth drags is always bad idea. You take them as jam unit and handy arc nodes for either Vayl. If you really want to play that way take Afflictor but it's bad idea. |
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