Ganso
Junior Strategist
Posts: 932
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Post by Ganso on Jul 8, 2017 18:50:29 GMT
I think Sorscha_1 out of theme is very good, with the Siege Crawler getting Spy Glass you can run Sylys instead and still benefit from both.
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Post by Blargaliscious on Jul 8, 2017 19:51:39 GMT
I always saw Khador's control game along the lines of "kill them" or "destroy that one" or "screw it, I'll just kill their caster." I'm hoping that that SR2017 gets away from the emphasis on getting control points and winning on scenario like previous versions of SR have done and allow for the importance of caster kill. Not to be argumentative, but merely to make an observation, I find it funny how a lot of you guys talk about Sorscha1 as a control caster when I see her (and Sorscha2 to a lesser extent) primarily as our premier assassin caster. That's noob talk, Sorscha is primarily a control caster and an assassin second. its like Butcher1 is a support caster first, not an assassin. Noob talk, huh? So when I was Wind Rushing, popping feat, charging the enemy caster and getting the victory through caster kill with our girl Sorscha back in Mk1 before there was even a Steam Roller tournament format, I should have instead been trying to "up my game" by playing her in a more control caster methodology? Obviously I need to git gud. My apologies.
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Post by tapecrawler on Jul 8, 2017 20:04:12 GMT
I think there was quite a bit of sarcasm in his post, Blargalicisious. It did read a bit condescending but I don't think that was Welshoppo's intent. I enjoy reading the posts of both of you. You come from very different viewpoints at times that I think are both valid and I'd hate to see this interaction get stifled because of a possible misunderstanding.
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Post by chillychinaman on Jul 8, 2017 20:33:33 GMT
just to back up/explain welshoppo, I think (s)he is saying that assassination is definitely on the table for Sorcha but, given other elements of her kit, she probably would play a control game stronger.
The way I see it is similar to Rhyas1. Her feat allows for to throw weapon masters into the opposing armies face with a potential 3 attacks each. Conversely, Acrobatics, occultation, and parry lend well to just forcing her down the enemy caster's throat during an assassination run. Both viable, but with the prevalence of tough in some lists, or boxes/ARM skew in another, one strategy may have an advantage over another.
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Post by welshhoppo on Jul 8, 2017 20:36:16 GMT
Everything I say is sarcastic. I'm Welsh. I was born drunk, bitter and sarcastic.
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Post by Netherby on Jul 8, 2017 20:36:30 GMT
Sorscha1 is a decent assassin for sure, but Wind Rush/Charge/Feat is not usually something more experienced players will let you do to their caster
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Post by welshhoppo on Jul 8, 2017 20:48:01 GMT
And there are also some targets that will survive the attacks. Plus there is quite a bit of things that ignore her feat. Such as iron zeal. Or things that are immune to cold.
The assassination is good, but it shouldn't be your first thought getting into a match.
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Post by Blargaliscious on Jul 9, 2017 1:05:12 GMT
Sorry, but I was trying to start a bit of a conversation by being as polite as possible and then I get someone calling me a noob. Considering I'm probably one of the few people on these boards that actually bought NQ issue #1 when it first hit the shelves, that stung. Oh well, that's what I get for being nice.
All right, screw you guys, no more Mr. Nice Guy. I'll see your drunken, bitter sarcasm with elderly, bitter sarcasm. I accept your non-apology.
Sorscha1 as a control caster: in my opinion you are playing with fire if you play her as a control caster, and FOC:6 with no Arc Nodes is the reason why. To get Freezing Grip to reliably hit you are boosting the to-hit roll, so that is 4 of your 6 focus, leaving you only 2. If there are no other enemy nearby and the chances of hitting are pretty good, you can risk spending the other 2 on allocating to warjacks, otherwise you need to sit on it in case you need to Wind Rush away.
Now, there is one caveat to the above, and it is an untested one that did not apply back in Mk1 and Mk2 - If you have Beast 09 (and / or Rager) with her, I can see Sorscha1 possibly working as a control caster. (I haven't played Sorscha1 in Mk3 yet.)
Back in Mk1 and Mk2 (except until the very end) Khador didn't have any Shield Guard warjacks. Whenever Sorscha1 got hit she would crumple pretty hard and pretty quick, so you always played her back some. The staple spells were Boundless Charge, Fog of War, and Wind Rush, with Freezing Grip, Razor Wind, and Tempest as the situation dictated. You let the army win the game, and if it wasn't going to do it for you then it cleared a path for Sorscha (or a fully loaded Boundless Charged warjack) to get the assassination. I never bothered toying around with her and a control game back then. Why bother?
All right, since I am the crotchety old geezer who hasn't learned a damn thing, how about you punk kids teach me (and the folks watching at home) how Sorscha1 should play a control game and what her army should have to play the game effectively.
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Growl
Junior Strategist
Posts: 496
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Post by Growl on Jul 9, 2017 1:26:19 GMT
I have heard it said that Sorscha can play a good control game as well and either don't fully understand what a control caster is, or feel that she plays a control game because of her assassination threat. Due to her potential 17-19" threat, as well as her ability to knock stuff down and/or freeze stuff in order to threat ranged kills or to get something else in on a caster, opponents can concede a certain amount of board space to her. With Sylys or Reinholdt around, freezing gripping an enemy unit could potentially halt the advance on one side of the board for your foe etc. I guess when I play her, which has always been an awful lot, I am primarily looking for and setting up up for the assassination, while trying to grab whatever scenario points I can take when yielded by my opponent.
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Post by sand20go on Jul 9, 2017 4:22:52 GMT
Good calls all. I think that if you play S1 as control you HAVE to have E1. By control we really mean the stupid game of getting to flage/zones and then denying your opponent. Among the worst offenders is Rahn - who can win games without killing a single model of yours. ;-)
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Post by smoothcriminal on Jul 9, 2017 22:35:59 GMT
Well I lost today to Z1 fangs as I2 fangs and it went like this: 1. Z1 wins first turn, runs. 2. Z1 feats. 3. No charges\shooting for I2. Z1 takes no meaningful damage and clears all 3 points, she's now 3 ahead. 4. I2 puts something in the zones, kills something. 5. Z1 clears 2 out of 3 (it's easier because more zones than in 2016) and wins. I can imagine same scenario with at least S1 and OW instead of Z1 depending on the army they're fighting against, Z1 just covers every single model type while S1\OW mostly control infantry only. I can even imagine it being played with an immunity feat caster like I1 or Strakhov2 who even have some minor control spells of their own. Mow theme is gonna be so silly on Strakhov2.
And I'm thinking this will be VERY common occurence in sr 2017 with 5 points difference. It was harder with 6 due to how many zones (you needed to score all 3 x 2 turns in a row and flags were harder to score), now you can just have a really good turn of scoring everything on the back of control feat and then pick where the opponent have the thinnest contest.
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Post by welshhoppo on Jul 9, 2017 23:06:02 GMT
Sorry, but I was trying to start a bit of a conversation by being as polite as possible and then I get someone calling me a noob. Considering I'm probably one of the few people on these boards that actually bought NQ issue #1 when it first hit the shelves, that stung. Oh well, that's what I get for being nice. All right, screw you guys, no more Mr. Nice Guy. I'll see your drunken, bitter sarcasm with elderly, bitter sarcasm. I accept your non-apology. Sorscha1 as a control caster: in my opinion you are playing with fire if you play her as a control caster, and FOC:6 with no Arc Nodes is the reason why. To get Freezing Grip to reliably hit you are boosting the to-hit roll, so that is 4 of your 6 focus, leaving you only 2. If there are no other enemy nearby and the chances of hitting are pretty good, you can risk spending the other 2 on allocating to warjacks, otherwise you need to sit on it in case you need to Wind Rush away. Now, there is one caveat to the above, and it is an untested one that did not apply back in Mk1 and Mk2 - If you have Beast 09 (and / or Rager) with her, I can see Sorscha1 possibly working as a control caster. (I haven't played Sorscha1 in Mk3 yet.) Back in Mk1 and Mk2 (except until the very end) Khador didn't have any Shield Guard warjacks. Whenever Sorscha1 got hit she would crumple pretty hard and pretty quick, so you always played her back some. The staple spells were Boundless Charge, Fog of War, and Wind Rush, with Freezing Grip, Razor Wind, and Tempest as the situation dictated. You let the army win the game, and if it wasn't going to do it for you then it cleared a path for Sorscha (or a fully loaded Boundless Charged warjack) to get the assassination. I never bothered toying around with her and a control game back then. Why bother? All right, since I am the crotchety old geezer who hasn't learned a damn thing, how about you punk kids teach me (and the folks watching at home) how Sorscha1 should play a control game and what her army should have to play the game effectively. Right, time to put on my Fighting trousers! But firstly, I do apoligise for calling you a noob. It wasn't intended that way. What I mean that that noobs go. "Wow, I can wind rush, boundless charge and feat and I can assassinate anyone! That's amazingly OP! Back in mkII I was in a journeyman league, because I'm quite partial to them. I also played Khador, because I only play Khador. But rather than running Sorscha1, I ran the alternate battlegroup consisting of Butcher1, Kodiak and a Decimater. There were several other players who picked up Khador. All of them played Sorscha1. And all of them lost their first game against me when Butcher tanked their 21 inch assassination charge because they only had 3 attempts to crack his armour. Granted it might be a bit different now with Sorscha gaining weaponmaster against frozen targets, but it isn't something you can rely on from the off. Now, why do I see Sorscha as a control caster over an assassination one? It's the same reason you view her the other way, because she's fragile. To be a proper assassination caster you need to have that threat, but you also need to be far enough up to actually be threatening. Now you've already described how Sorscha acts as a control caster. She holds back, her army does the work for her, and if things go really really bad, then she has to come in herself and do the dirty deed. But how does she act as a control caster? Well it's a combination of various things,. You couple her feat with freezing grip. Catch a whole unit and one dude, shuffle to the next unit and freeze the guy who is already frozen. Use Sylys for 3 dice or Reinholt for lucky charm. Two whole units frozen. Anything behind those units now can't move forward. Unless your opponents want to trample their own heavies through their models, they can't get to the front. Shoot the guys in the zones with your guns such as rifle corps or the now accurate warjacks and you've locked them out. Khador doesn't have any traditional control casters, but Sorscha is one of them, She's tricksy and hard to catch, moving back and forth and keeping things frozen or knocked down. She's good with Winterguard, but combine it with Eiryss for stationary disruption or field guns for knocked down and stationary. It works very well.
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Growl
Junior Strategist
Posts: 496
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Post by Growl on Jul 9, 2017 23:39:55 GMT
smoothcriminal in your game, was it that the Z1 player was playing for the fast scenario win from the get go and that the Irusk player was not and by the time he adjusted it was too late, or was there nothing the Irusk player could do? I guess because there are so many ways to score now, that it's not as hard as I would have thought to get ahead by 5. SR 2016 was difficult to get ahead by that many typically.
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Post by Soul Samurai on Jul 10, 2017 6:41:26 GMT
Well I lost today to Z1 fangs as I2 fangs and it went like this: 1. Z1 wins first turn, runs. 2. Z1 feats. Did Zerkova run then feat on first turn (in which case I didn't know you could do that), or was it a turn 2 feat?
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crimsyn
Junior Strategist
Posts: 389
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Post by crimsyn on Jul 10, 2017 7:55:49 GMT
I don't think Sorscha1 falls into a neat little box. Her kit has elements of control, assassination, and attrition, and they all complement each other nicely.
For example, she has the potential game-ending assassination run, but just being able to threaten that means that she can deny a decent sized area of the battlefield to an opposing caster. She can jam up enemies by freezing a unit, and getting someone frozen really helps some of the accuracy issues on some of our ranged weapons.
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