didder
Junior Strategist
Posts: 166
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Post by didder on Jul 7, 2017 18:35:17 GMT
Skorne was quite successful with the top teams having several Skorne lists in their five list selection. Looking through the lists I notice that there's hardly a titan to be found. Multiple Shamans are common. Even Savages show up. There's little presence of the Agonizer. There's a broad selection of Warlocks.
About the titans, does anyone have theories on why our supposed premier heavy chassis was almost nonexistent? Is it because Hordes heavies are too expensive compared to Warjacks? Is it because of their Spd 4, Def10, Arm19 statline? A combination? Susceptibility to control effects? Maybe the ETC list makers were trying to avoid spending too many points in one model for the most part to avoid debuffs?
The Agonizer I decided a while ago was too susceptible to being sniped out, and though his effect is strong, it's also likely to do nothing against the ever common ranged skew.
Shamans I've heard the idea being kicked around but never saw the implementation before now. Boy do they make for an unimpressive Skorne army aesthetically.
Reivers I've used a lot and am not surprised to see strong support for the idea of them being one of our faction's best units. Same with Ferox.
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zich
Junior Strategist
Posts: 690
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Post by zich on Jul 7, 2017 20:54:55 GMT
It's actually not at all surprising. Titans are good for Hordes heavies, but simply cannot keep up with Warmachine heavies, at least at the peak. Just play a beast spam into Amon and you'll know what I mean. Jackspam invalidates most of our heavies, but we have other answers. Cats are among them.
It's similar to Mk2 where Jacks were corner-case so Warmachine reached for Infantry.
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granor
Junior Strategist
Posts: 353
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Post by granor on Jul 7, 2017 21:33:29 GMT
I agree but I would like to give more details on the issues i see.
1) our beasts seem a little bit overpriced. I do not think this is in the offensive capacity but instead in the survivability aspect of them. The bad thing is the over-costed nature makes the survivability problem larger because you can't make up for it with more models. Going down to 10 def is just a really big problem that is starting to show its face. I am sure the titans were designed to be in a theme so we really will not know how the power level will end up until we get that theme.
2) The glad can be a problem. The gladiator is a descent beast for 15 points given its fury 4 good offensive output and great animus. the problem is that animus has become necessary for the proper function of the rest of the titans. This means you have to bring this 15 point beast and that you have to protect it to keep your game plan from falling apart mid game. This usually ends up meaning you have 15 points that doesn't do anything until the game is already decided.
3) PGBH are expensive. PGBH are required for the proper offensive output of our beasts the more beasts you bring the more PGBH you want. The PGBH are expensive and eat up points quickly.
4) The krea and aggy limit design space. the krea and aggy are the reason our titans are 10/19 but they are expensive to the point you don't want to bring them in all your lists and really do not want to bring both in any list. Also the auras have limited range giving our opponents big opportunities for counter play to the point that I just don't want to bring these guys at all.
5) assassination is often needed. As a skorne player I am finding I more and more often need to be able to pressure assassination to really win games. the shaman with far strike can do that well. So now you start wanting to drop a shaman and raider in every list. Once you do this you really don't want to add yet more beasts to the list. The one odd thing about the ETC is 66% assassination can be a wining strategy once you apply those odds across the entire team. If 3 of your players go for a 66% assassination in the round you will win 2 of those games now you only need one more game to win the round.
As a side note I feel now that we have the full rules the winds of death lists on the team would be improved by adding the battle engine to them. Of course I have not played against ghost fleet so I could be weakening them against the main matchup they are on the team for.
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Post by skathrex on Jul 8, 2017 9:58:53 GMT
I have to disagree as a skorne and khador player. It's often just a case of the grass is greener on the other side. I don't like the comparison between jacks and beasts because it's apples and oranges. I would trade Jugger for Gladiator any day of the week for example.
The reason why you don't see Gladiators or agi in the list is because they don't fit the list stile. WoD prefers rng beasts ando the shaman is the best and cheapest. He threads 20 inches while ignoring Los and stealth.
Why would they take a Gladiator? They don't want to charge
Same with the ferox list. The whole list is built around that 1 Interaction and tries to improve it as much as possible. Krea helps against rng but Gladiator nd agi don't offer anything meaningful.
But I don't think we have to worry. We will get a beast theme that will at least reduce the cost of our support.
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granor
Junior Strategist
Posts: 353
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Post by granor on Jul 8, 2017 12:37:17 GMT
I would trade Jugger for Gladiator any day of the week for example. The reason why you don't see Gladiators or agi in the list is because they don't fit the list stile. I understand having the glad in khador would be awesome but the point is if you had the glad in khador all you casters would lose their threat extensions. i am pretty sure you would not make that trade The big question is was the glad and aggy not used because they didn't fit the style of list or were the style of lists chosen so the team could not use the aggy and glad Given there is one list in there with an aggy and my experience with the game I am guessing the team tried to make the aggy work found one list where it did and quickly discovered in "most" other lists the titans are just not the strongest option for your battlegroup Edit. Also shaman does not ignore stealth
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Post by Cryptix on Jul 8, 2017 12:46:47 GMT
I have to disagree as a skorne and khador player. It's often just a case of the grass is greener on the other side. I don't like the comparison between jacks and beasts because it's apples and oranges. I would trade Jugger for Gladiator any day of the week for example. The reason why you don't see Gladiators or agi in the list is because they don't fit the list stile. WoD prefers rng beasts ando the shaman is the best and cheapest. He threads 20 inches while ignoring Los and stealth. Why would they take a Gladiator? They don't want to charge Same with the ferox list. The whole list is built around that 1 Interaction and tries to improve it as much as possible. Krea helps against rng but Gladiator nd agi don't offer anything meaningful. But I don't think we have to worry. We will get a beast theme that will at least reduce the cost of our support. There is a major difference between Khador and Skorne - we have only 1 caster speed buff, and he's FURY 5. We have to run Gladiators if we want to take any heavies at all because Titans don't have the defensive stats - don't assume that we're always 12/21 because it's a 3" bubble that is 2 of our warlock's already very low fury.
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zich
Junior Strategist
Posts: 690
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Post by zich on Jul 8, 2017 18:13:19 GMT
I have to disagree as a skorne and khador player. It's often just a case of the grass is greener on the other side. I don't like the comparison between jacks and beasts because it's apples and oranges. I would trade Jugger for Gladiator any day of the week for example. The reason why you don't see Gladiators or agi in the list is because they don't fit the list stile. WoD prefers rng beasts ando the shaman is the best and cheapest. He threads 20 inches while ignoring Los and stealth. Why would they take a Gladiator? They don't want to charge Same with the ferox list. The whole list is built around that 1 Interaction and tries to improve it as much as possible. Krea helps against rng but Gladiator nd agi don't offer anything meaningful. But I don't think we have to worry. We will get a beast theme that will at least reduce the cost of our support. It's not about comparisons or grass being greener on either side. Playing beasts into jacks is an unfavorable matchup. I played it a lot and even under perfect circumstances (fully buffed all-out alpha, as this is what beasts excell at) it just doesn't work. I don't want to theoretically compare models across factions, we have enough asinine 30 page threads in the general forum for that. I am telling you about my experience with the matter and how data from the top of the competitive spectrum supports it. As to list style: Why do you think Titans don't fit any of the popular Skorne lists? It's because the lists they do fit aren't all that good. To repeat my core point: I don't think Titans are particularly bad beasts. They just can't keep up with jacks.
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didder
Junior Strategist
Posts: 166
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Post by didder on Jul 8, 2017 19:32:05 GMT
I think the Agonizer needs 4 more inches of effect, and the cries other than strength debuff can drop off into the ocean
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Post by skathrex on Jul 8, 2017 21:01:11 GMT
S on a lot of answers I will try to adress them all but don't be mad if I miss something.
The point about the Gladiator and Jugger was perfectly enforced by your answers. You can't compare them add all! That was my main point. Jackspam works only in some cases and mostly because of the casters. There are 4 prominent Jackspams atm. Among and Vyros2 are synergie casters and that's all they do basically. Karchev and Harkevich run basically an armor/ box skew as the other archetype.
On the other side you have fyanas Oracles as the probably best Jack/beastspam list in the game currently which is a deff skew. Furthermore you have una2 who is somewhat similar to the synergie casters. Baldur runs double Worldwrath but that's something different.
Only the "heavy" beastbricks don't work right atm which are skorne and trolls, but at least for skorne I think a good theme list can fix that.
As to the list I think the Naaresh list was one of the weakest ones out of the bunch and it's just that agi is something you want against a melee army if you are already tough, which is nothing Makeda or WoD are or want. Thanks Gladiator is similar as it wants to support melee beasts which again neither of these archetypes likes to run. In Makeda the beasts should support her or the cats and with WoD you prefer rng beasts which don't need the Gladiator support.
It feels a bit odd because most skorne players like the "Fist to the face " stile play of beastbricks or melee units like cetrati. But atm we are a better "trick" and rng faction.
The agi and Gladiator will be better as soon as we get a theme that supports that play stile or when the meta shifts to more balanced lists.
Oh btw I was already counting on the extolled for eyeless sight with the shamans.
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Post by sentinel on Jul 9, 2017 6:04:43 GMT
Once titan theme will drop we will see list with them. Till that time our only theme in general and siege animatrax in personal is better... cause everything getting better with a free solos, which a basically same as 20% discount to things thats give you that free solos. Would you take gladiator or sentry with 20% discount at 12 pts? I would.
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Cyel
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Cyel on Jul 10, 2017 7:15:20 GMT
There is a major difference between Khador and Skorne - we have only 1 caster speed buff, and he's FURY 5. Do you mean a SPD/movement buff on a Skorne warlock? Because there's certainly more of them. A few with Fury 5 (Xerxis 1, Xerxis 2, Morghoul1) and some with more (Makeda 1, Morghoul 3). Perhaps more, I'm listing those I know and play against.
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Post by Cryptix on Jul 10, 2017 12:16:28 GMT
There is a major difference between Khador and Skorne - we have only 1 caster speed buff, and he's FURY 5. Do you mean a SPD/movement buff on a Skorne warlock? Because there's certainly more of them. A few with Fury 5 (Xerxis 1, Xerxis 2, Morghoul1) and some with more (Makeda 1, Morghoul 3). Perhaps more, I'm listing those I know and play against. I was talking about multitarget ones to be fair (Field Marshall), but yes I forgot about those. I was hoping the +2 SPD would be enough to make him playable but the FURY 5 is just too crippling too make him run any amount of beasts - I had to resort to double Ferox + Archidons. Same problem with Morghoul and Xerxis 1 - they're too squishy to even cast that without dying as frontline warlocks. I just want a beast caster with 6+ FURY - I feel like the existence of Rasheth will make this impossible tho.
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granor
Junior Strategist
Posts: 353
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Post by granor on Jul 10, 2017 14:25:32 GMT
There is a major difference between Khador and Skorne - we have only 1 caster speed buff, and he's FURY 5. Do you mean a SPD/movement buff on a Skorne warlock? Because there's certainly more of them. A few with Fury 5 (Xerxis 1, Xerxis 2, Morghoul1) and some with more (Makeda 1, Morghoul 3). Perhaps more, I'm listing those I know and play against. A good point so you don't lose any threat extenders just any caster that has them for jacks gets reduced to focus 5. This deal is getting better all the time!!!! seriously morghoul3 using mirage as a beast threat extension I never thought about. But I don't own him.
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Cyel
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Cyel on Jul 10, 2017 16:16:03 GMT
I love Mirage when I play Goreshade 2. I think it's better in many cases, especially when you have easy access to Pathfinder (or even better, in my case, Ghostly). Hide behind a forest out of enemy LOS, Apparition, charge...
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Post by skathrex on Jul 11, 2017 7:20:41 GMT
Do you mean a SPD/movement buff on a Skorne warlock? Because there's certainly more of them. A few with Fury 5 (Xerxis 1, Xerxis 2, Morghoul1) and some with more (Makeda 1, Morghoul 3). Perhaps more, I'm listing those I know and play against. A good point so you don't lose any threat extenders just any caster that has them for jacks gets reduced to focus 5. This deal is getting better all the time!!!! seriously morghoul3 using mirage as a beast threat extension I never thought about. But I don't own him. Please stop compairing apples with oranges...Focus and Fury are wastly different mechanics. A Focus 5 Caster has to have around 3-5 jacks to have around the same output as a Fury5 Caster
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