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Post by RandomThoughts on Jul 5, 2017 21:29:22 GMT
So, with lots of new models coming out, those two units (besides Elara2) caught my eye, but I'm hesitant.
First of all the Arcanists. At a higher point cost than regular Arcanist mechanics, they lack the crucial Concentrated Power, and on top of that have to stay close together whereas the Arcanist Mechanics can move wherever they are needed. Seems like a waste to bring them when I can get three Mechanics at one point less instead.
About the Spears, incredible models, and I like the Shield Guard, but otherwise they seem to be pretty unimpressive for three points a piece - especially wen compared to the only slightly more expansive Mage Hunter Assassins, which trade two points of base damage for Decapitation and better mobility.
Am I missing something, because I can't for the sake of it find a reason to include either unit in any of my lists right now.
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Post by Demeritus on Jul 5, 2017 21:55:20 GMT
I haven't tried the spears but as far as the arcanists go you can run them if you want to play a jack heavy list. While 7 points feels a bit on the excessive side (5-6 would have been fine) it still allows you a lot of flexibility in play being able to throw out more focus than any faction sans perhaps Convergence. Take someone like Ossyan who is very upkeep heavy but likes some jacks and wants to keep his guns fueled, this gives an option to present more focus without taxing his already strained pool.
Magister Hellyna in particular loves this unit as I have always found myself focus starved with her and now she can do what she wants to do, toss out one of her nukes when the time presents itself and fuel the battlegroup the way she really wants.
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Post by RandomThoughts on Jul 5, 2017 22:12:38 GMT
Hm, you may be right, the only place I considered them for is my Vyros2 list (I don't run any other warjack heavy builds atm), and it is already so strapped for points, I don't feel good about dropping a Griffon to get a bit more Focus in.
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Post by Tom_Bombadil_ on Jul 5, 2017 23:46:13 GMT
The Spears are a unit that personally I really like, they have the potential to do some real work especially on a turn with vengeance and E3 really loves the extra mobility it gives. As for particular casters to run them with everyone loves shield guards and they make great revive targets for 4shade. One interesting thing I have noticed is their interaction with Soulless Escorts. First off they are amazing vengeance triggers that don't cause you to lose a third of the unit and they make great anchors for gorshade to revive off of. Leave them in the back once all three die he is now in formation and is still a valid target to cast revive on. Impossible really to lose the unit completely.
The arcanists I have not personally run but I have heard a lot of discussion on their uses. First off I have found that rarely are they run instead of the solos but as an additional resource for exsesive amounts of focus. My personal favorite is unit + 1solo for lots of focus and the situational ConPow. It is important to note if you want to run then instead of the solo they do have some advantages. Survivabilty. The primary predator of support models is blasts and long ranger shooting both of which are handled by force barrier. Higher CMD. The extra range on Empower is a huge deal. Lower minimum Repair. Normally this isn't a big deal but if you are a person who's dice hate them and always plan for the worst then it's good to know that the minimum for 3 solos on repair is 3 where as for the unit it is 6.
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Post by droopingpuppy on Jul 6, 2017 10:23:44 GMT
I don't think that you consider Arcanists unit until you maxed FA of Arcanist Mechaniks, for you can get three of them by 6 points and they can be splited and stick with the other warjacks. But, if you already included three of them and still need more source for Empower then they would be useful. As said above, Force Barrier is a good tool to survive against the blasts as well.
As always, I think that a small unit with no utility is simply worthless because they needs some utility like a solo or two, as well as cause some damage. If you need for more damage output, consider units like as Houseguard Halberdiers and Dawnguard Sentinels. If you need for a surgical knife, then the solo missile like Mage Hunter Assassin would be a right choice. For now I don't see the value of Spear of Scyrah at all, as the most three strength small units without any utility in the games.
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Post by HubertJFarnsworth on Jul 6, 2017 20:39:43 GMT
I'm not really sold on the Arcanists (well, I guess I am since I ordered them but that's a completionist thing). The longer range focus boost is nice and I can see Rahn liking the extra magic attacks but I'm not sure it's worth giving up Concentrated power. I love the Spears though, even if I haven't gotten much good use out of them in proxy games due to some luck and some bad play. Still think it's weird that they're the only character unit that aren't named on the card and it's a shame they don't each have unique rules (though I think PP tried to move away from that in Mk3) but I like them a lot for that DEF 17 melee. They're a really good, fast jam.
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Post by CaptCommy on Jul 7, 2017 16:33:06 GMT
I haven't found any list where I really want the Arcanists yet. I've tried most permutations but found that if I only bring one Mechanik, my opponent will scalpel him out and then I'm down +2 POW on all my jacks, which is a huge deal. Bringing 2 Mechaniks and the unit has been overkill in that I can't justify spending 11 points on support.
The Spears, however, have performed well when I drop them. Echoing all the thoughts with 4shade above, they're also really useful in Vyros1 to set up his feat. They're very hard to kill on the approach and vengeance + reach + pathfinder makes setting up flanks real easy and with DEF 17 in melee, they survive more than I expect. Eiryss3 with vengeance is also super scary and has won me games. They're not a slam dunk in every list, but they def have a place.
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dagowit
Junior Strategist
Posts: 171
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Post by dagowit on Jul 9, 2017 8:50:22 GMT
Magister Hellyna in particular loves this unit as I have always found myself focus starved with her and now she can do what she wants to do, toss out one of her nukes when the time presents itself and fuel the battlegroup the way she really wants. I have had the same experience with Helynna and Forges of War. Getting Hand of Destruction on something every turn and still having enough focus on myrmidons to boost all my shooting both boosts perfoamance and creates a constant assassination threat. The extra RNG on Empower means the Shyeel Arcanists are out of Electro Leap range even if they go fill up a Hydra after it has shot. In fact, I am now considering 'jack marshals with, say, Elara2 or Thyron, where you can get free charges with extra movement and still have Crush, 3 focus, and Concentrated Power. Yes, I'd love to one-round Colossals  |
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Post by Tom_Bombadil_ on Jul 9, 2017 12:38:19 GMT
I will second the notion that I feel the place where the shyeel arcanists really shine is forges of war. Having 11-13 points in jack support is much more viable when basically the entirety of the rest of your army is jacks.
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Post by Demeritus on Jul 10, 2017 0:27:20 GMT
The more I have thought about the arcanist unit the more I realize they are definitely NOT our choir/beast handlers but are an additional jack support option that we now have if we want to that gives out jack heavy game a much deeper bench to go into battle with.
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Post by celeb on Jul 10, 2017 7:05:44 GMT
Let's start with the Arcanists: I don't like them. They are basically empower for more points/model than the solo. Additionally, I want at least one Solo for Concentrated Power, so that is 9-11 Points in pure Jack support. I can't really justify that in my lists. If they did anything else (like giving pathfinder or Magical weapons to jacks) I would have considered them.
The Spears on the other hand are a great unit. First of all, they are Shield Guards with Vengeance an they hit like a truck. In addition, stealth means they won't usually be shot off the table. As soon as they hit, they are a pain to remove with DEF 15 and Duelist. It isn't uncommon to see a single Spear lock down half a 10-man unit, or require a Warjack(beast)-activation to clear it off which in return allows to threaten where the Jack will stand. Eiryss3 with Vengeance is also nasty.
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Post by HubertJFarnsworth on Jul 10, 2017 14:19:42 GMT
Man, I love the Spears on paper but I've just had the worst luck with them. Three games with them so have has seen them:
Ganged up on by Praetorians under Hexy1s feat and then used to kill each other
Shot off the table by Woldwyrds because Gunfighter isn't a melee attack
Slaughtered by Carnivored Nyss Hunters who never rolled anything less than an 8 to hit all game
I know they're good but damn they've underperformed so far.
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dagowit
Junior Strategist
Posts: 171
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Post by dagowit on Jul 10, 2017 14:55:59 GMT
Let's start with the Arcanists: I don't like them. They are basically empower for more points/model than the solo. Additionally, I want at least one Solo for Concentrated Power, so that is 9-11 Points in pure Jack support. I can't really justify that in my lists. If they did anything else (like giving pathfinder or Magical weapons to jacks) I would have considered them. While I understand your concerns, the Arcanist Mechanics are still FA 3, so if you want more than 3 focus/concentrated power boosts per turn, you now have an additional (albeit slightly more expensive) option. They have higher CMD, though, so they are a bit more safe than the Solos and the unit also covers more ground than you would expect after playing a lot with just the Solos. As others pointed out though, the unit probably only comes into play when you have a really 'jack heavy army and want more than 3 free focus per turn (I still need to experiment with 'jack marshals and a ton of focus). Like HubertJFarnsworth, my Spears of Scyrah have been unfortunate. I had my unit wiped in a turn to unpredictably lucky Ironback Spitter Deviations and Bog Trog Ambushers CMA'ing. I feel like I need more time with them to find out where they should be placed for optimal effect. |
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Post by celeb on Jul 11, 2017 4:49:56 GMT
Ganged up on by Praetorians under Hexy1s feat and then used to kill each other How?  Did your opponent just roll godlike? I mean, they need 10s to hit each other, 8s if they manage to get in each other's back arc. |
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Did your opponent just roll godlike? I mean, they need 10s to hit each other, 8s if they manage to get in each other's back arc.