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Post by lyrael on Jul 4, 2017 18:25:54 GMT
macdaddy I saw you in that circle thread. I'll take you at your word, but as someone who's played against the Celestial Fulcrum, the Circle one does a lot more for the Circle army than the AFG does for Ret. So yeah, I would just kill the army around it, and then laugh, because there aren't that many buffs Retribution casters can hand it, the AFG's ability to buff its own attacks is very limited, and it's just there. I don't think you'll ever see two of them (like oncomingstorm said in the Circle BE thread), and to be honest, I'm having a hard time seeing anyone who doesn't already own one picking one up unless they really like the model. I don't think it will see competitive play (outside of maybe for math reasons in Defenders of Ios, which I'm not persuaded is that good of a theme list). In short, it's better than it was (on the better side of fine), but it would take considerably more for it to be good. I promise you, the Ret player is much more scared of the Celestial Fulcrum than you should ever be of the AFG.
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Post by macdaddy on Jul 4, 2017 20:29:34 GMT
Ok ok. I'm not trying attack Ret now. I think the Disco Cricket is bonkers. If just because of its durability and turn by turn Danage output. I think you guys are underestimating it but I don't play Ret so my experience is based on what I have seen and played against more than played with myself.
I also never said the fulcrum wasn't fantastic. I love that thing but you guys are really overestimating how often 2 will be run. Tanith does it best. Other casters prefer another heavy or just don't support it/benefit from it enough. I play bones exclusively so I'll be running 1 almost all the time. But I highly doubt 2 will be a common sight.
Anyway, I'm sorry if I offended anyone I'm not trolling I just think the Ret engine is bananas and it's not getting the credit it deserves. Ignoring it seems like the best option for sure and I appreciate your input.
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Post by Demeritus on Jul 5, 2017 3:23:55 GMT
I would myself either ignore it or jam it. I think it can do decently but its damage output is not the most amazing thing I have ever seen (I think it's a solid piece and can be justified in lists though). Another option is to try to block LoS to what model(s) it will be going after, since chances are it will want to focus on single targets like jacks.
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Post by oncomingstorm on Jul 5, 2017 5:34:29 GMT
Ok ok. I'm not trying attack Ret now. I think the Disco Cricket is bonkers. If just because of its durability and turn by turn Danage output. I think you guys are underestimating it but I don't play Ret so my experience is based on what I have seen and played against more than played with myself. I also never said the fulcrum wasn't fantastic. I love that thing but you guys are really overestimating how often 2 will be run. Tanith does it best. Other casters prefer another heavy or just don't support it/benefit from it enough. I play bones exclusively so I'll be running 1 almost all the time. But I highly doubt 2 will be a common sight. Anyway, I'm sorry if I offended anyone I'm not trolling I just think the Ret engine is bananas and it's not getting the credit it deserves. Ignoring it seems like the best option for sure and I appreciate your input. I sit between you and lyrael . I think it's a very good piece, and will definitely see play with some casters, but it's not over the top to the point where you're going to be seeing it in every list, or even every pairing. It's output is good, but it has very little scenario presence unless it moves, which lowers that output significantly. It can be jammed by ambushing (or just fast) infantry, and while it can shoot in melee (or just walk out of melee with carapace) it's still losing it's aiming bonus by doing so (and it can't shoot OUT of melee, because it has gunfighter rather than dual attack.) It's output is strong, but no better than the Storm Strider or the Fulcrum, and it's also very static, which makes it easy to either only feed it targets you don't mind it shooting, or force it to move to get shots. It doesn't answer stealth effectively, and it's still very slow (if you go second, it gets to the line where Cygnar players can deploy a Blockhouse.) Certain casters can answer one or more of those issues, and if they also synergize with it (Ossyan, Garryth) then it can be a monster, but absent those synergies I doubt you'll see it played. For the record, my AFG just arrived today, so there's at least ONE Ret player who bought one as a result of the CID...
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dagowit
Junior Strategist
Posts: 171
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Post by dagowit on Jul 5, 2017 10:48:05 GMT
Ok ok. I'm not trying attack Ret now. I think the Disco Cricket is bonkers. If just because of its durability and turn by turn Danage output. No offence taken! I think turning up and saying "Your Battle Engine seems so great I need help killing it" can only be taken as a compliment Besides, it is also important for Retribution players to discuss and be aware of counter-plays to, and limitations of, what is certainly a much improved model. People asking these questions can only help the community as a whole. I experimented with the AFG as soon as mk3 hit and found that it was playable (and fun) in certain lists. After the CID, I have put it into one list I hadn't considered before - and it has obviously gotten more effective in the lists I already constructed. That said, I really doubt I will be putting it into more "new" types of list. As much as I like it, I'm not considering a second one (if that is any kind of comfort).
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Post by fdesrochers on Jul 6, 2017 10:21:55 GMT
I started using the AFG part way into Mk3 and was happy with it before the changes. I've kept it to Ossyan and Garryth and both made really good use of it as a fire base, supported/supporting a Banshee either Hypnos or Sphinx. The CID just added more icing to the cake - yum yum.
Given the changes made to Defenders now, it's almost an auto-include for me for Ossyan. Leveraging a Banshee shooting 14 inches to knock stuff down and two more AFG knock down shots, it can swing things pretty hard. In all my games (under old rules), I don't think I can recall a game where I had to move it after running Turn 1. I can't wait to start using it under the current iteration.
My only gripe would be the random amounts and placement of flash and excess material. Thankfully I had a dremel to get rid of that column behind the front facing..... That said, the thing is only 8 or so pieces, which was a real bonus!
FCD
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isotope
Junior Strategist
Posts: 634
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Post by isotope on Jul 6, 2017 13:04:59 GMT
I started using the AFG part way into Mk3 and was happy with it before the changes. I've kept it to Ossyan and Garryth and both made really good use of it as a fire base, supported/supporting a Banshee either Hypnos or Sphinx. The CID just added more icing to the cake - yum yum. Given the changes made to Defenders now, it's almost an auto-include for me for Ossyan. Leveraging a Banshee shooting 14 inches to knock stuff down and two more AFG knock down shots, it can swing things pretty hard. In all my games (under old rules), I don't think I can recall a game where I had to move it after running Turn 1. I can't wait to start using it under the current iteration. My only gripe would be the random amounts and placement of flash and excess material. Thankfully I had a dremel to get rid of that column behind the front facing..... That said, the thing is only 8 or so pieces, which was a real bonus! FCD I also used it with Ossyan. When ossyan got Fortune it was the best way to hit fix for AFG. RAT 9 aimimg 16" knockdowns with rerolls knocks some heavies down. Ive got moros and sentinels at the moment but once i can get banshee and swordsmen painted i can pull it into theme for 17 free points. So glad ive already got an AFG being painted up!
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Post by Demeritus on Jul 6, 2017 23:40:29 GMT
Just remember Moros cannot go in theme with Ossyan because he is not the bonded warcaster.
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isotope
Junior Strategist
Posts: 634
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Post by isotope on Jul 7, 2017 0:28:28 GMT
Just remember Moros cannot go in theme with Ossyan because he is not the bonded warcaster. Like i said.. im swapping out moros and sentinels for banshee and swordsmen
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Post by Demeritus on Jul 7, 2017 0:30:34 GMT
Just remember Moros cannot go in theme with Ossyan because he is not the bonded warcaster. Like i said.. im swapping out moros and sentinels for banshee and swordsmen That's what happens when I skim on my phone!
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Post by rainless on Jul 13, 2017 16:02:34 GMT
I agree with Macdaddy in the fact that AFG is stupid good. It sits and destroys Jacks. Makes friendly Shooty jacks shoot further and is really hard to shoot and can not be charged....
2 shots with a choice of added affect: - 4" AoE Rough Terrain - Boost Damage rolls - 3" push of small/Med base models with 14 POW collateral
I don't see how this is good with only some casters... its just so good from looking at it.
How do you take this thing down when you have an army of other models in front of it? Im a Khador Player but, what would you as ret players do to kill this thing?
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isotope
Junior Strategist
Posts: 634
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Post by isotope on Jul 13, 2017 18:14:19 GMT
I agree with Macdaddy in the fact that AFG is stupid good. It sits and destroys Jacks. Makes friendly Shooty jacks shoot further and is really hard to shoot and can not be charged.... 2 shots with a choice of added affect: - 4" AoE Rough Terrain - Boost Damage rolls - 3" push of small/Med base models with 14 POW collateral I don't see how this is good with only some casters... its just so good from looking at it. How do you take this thing down when you have an army of other models in front of it? Im a Khador Player but, what would you as ret players do to kill this thing? The lists/casters you want this thing in have to have some kind of synergy. G4 arcane vortex to stop TK? Sure. Ossyan with fortune and knockdown to hit fix for archers? Ok Kae with Refuge to keep it alive and mobile a little better? Yup Sentry on Garryth? Mhmm Not everyone wants it though. I doubt you'd see it with Vyros1 or 2, Ravyn you never see anyways, etc... People think polarity field makes it invincible but jacks can still trample to close the gap and then buy attacks onto it, terrain still blocks its LOS, it has a somewhat static threat range, spells like TK and Blind make this thing their Female Dog.
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Post by rainless on Jul 13, 2017 21:01:23 GMT
I agree with Macdaddy in the fact that AFG is stupid good. It sits and destroys Jacks. Makes friendly Shooty jacks shoot further and is really hard to shoot and can not be charged.... 2 shots with a choice of added affect: - 4" AoE Rough Terrain - Boost Damage rolls - 3" push of small/Med base models with 14 POW collateral I don't see how this is good with only some casters... its just so good from looking at it. How do you take this thing down when you have an army of other models in front of it? Im a Khador Player but, what would you as ret players do to kill this thing? The lists/casters you want this thing in have to have some kind of synergy. G4 arcane vortex to stop TK? Sure. Ossyan with fortune and knockdown to hit fix for archers? Ok Kae with Refuge to keep it alive and mobile a little better? Yup Sentry on Garryth? Mhmm Not everyone wants it though. I doubt you'd see it with Vyros1 or 2, Ravyn you never see anyways, etc... People think polarity field makes it invincible but jacks can still trample to close the gap and then buy attacks onto it, terrain still blocks its LOS, it has a somewhat static threat range, spells like TK and Blind make this thing their Female Dog.
Thought TK doesn't affect huge models?
Seems the best thing is to hide behind LoS terrain or clouds. I think SR2017 is adding a lot more terrain so this will knock it down a peg?
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isotope
Junior Strategist
Posts: 634
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Post by isotope on Jul 13, 2017 23:15:33 GMT
The lists/casters you want this thing in have to have some kind of synergy. G4 arcane vortex to stop TK? Sure. Ossyan with fortune and knockdown to hit fix for archers? Ok Kae with Refuge to keep it alive and mobile a little better? Yup Sentry on Garryth? Mhmm Not everyone wants it though. I doubt you'd see it with Vyros1 or 2, Ravyn you never see anyways, etc... People think polarity field makes it invincible but jacks can still trample to close the gap and then buy attacks onto it, terrain still blocks its LOS, it has a somewhat static threat range, spells like TK and Blind make this thing their Female Dog.
Thought TK doesn't affect huge models?
Seems the best thing is to hide behind LoS terrain or clouds. I think SR2017 is adding a lot more terrain so this will knock it down a peg?
BE cant be pushed pulled or knocked down but TK is a place. It can be turned around and charged in the butt.
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