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Post by samuraijaques on Jun 24, 2017 10:27:45 GMT
Hey guys, weird topic but my friend and I have just started playing warmachine and it seems like every game we play I crush him unless I either get really unlucky or completely screw up some crucial thing. I am playing Khador (for the motherland, obviously) and he is playing Circle. We are both still just at the battlegroup leveland the lists that we play usually look something like this:
Khador - Karchev/Kozlov - Behemoth or a Kodiak + Juggernaut
Circle - Wurmwood - Argus Moonhound - Warpwolf Stalker/Feral Warpwolf
I beat him like 90 percent of the time and it seems like he's starting to get frustrated. Especially at the high survivability of the units in the Khador army. I want to keep playing with him and I want to keep playing my army of big stompy robots because that is the whole reason I started playing. Is there anything that I can suggest to him to help combat my lists or is it maybe just a matter of him not having enough points to play with?
Please help.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Jun 24, 2017 10:36:25 GMT
Tell him all your plans and comboes and give him tips every step of the way. Mention charge ranges and other such stuff.
Make sure he doesn't feel suprised and guide him with every step. For a newguy you need this sort of tutoring until you can get stuff memorized.
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Post by welshhoppo on Jun 24, 2017 11:08:37 GMT
Circle really struggles into high armour khador.
The best bet is to fall on your sword.
Or ask him to bring Kaya, she likes beasts.
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Post by zerosequence on Jun 24, 2017 14:08:37 GMT
Circle might be the most difficult faction to play and is really tough on the beginner. Encourage your friend to go online and read a lot of Tacticas and watch battle reports. Focus on positioning of models and order of activations and how the combos stack. Circle is all about order, position, and combo stacking, more than any other faction.
If you really want to work together the best thing is to talk through order of activations, allow rewinds, do some quick dice averages, etc.
Warmachine is an easy game or learn but a very unforgiving to master. It takes time and you will lose a lot your first year.
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Post by smoothcriminal on Jun 24, 2017 20:02:32 GMT
Wurmwood isn't a good choice against Khador on battlegroup level. Baldurs and Kayas are the best I think. Having a caster that can whack something is also a big deal, Wurmwood can't do that. In that sense playing Karchev(or Butcher) in low pts formats is sure way to make people hate you.
Moonhound seems useless as most other lights. Should take Gorax probably. With both Hound and Wurmwood he's basically playing 1 single meaningful beast against your 2 heavies (or 3 in case of Karchev), no wonder you're winning everything.
Stalker is definitely the best choice. If played right it's you who's in trouble because Stalker with damage buff/debuff he can one round a Khador heavy and Sprint somewhere safe.
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Post by tapecrawler on Jun 24, 2017 20:46:04 GMT
It's a different mindset to play these armies. Khador is super durable and even if you tell him your entire game plan it will be hard for him to stop you. Now Circle has tricks and movement shenanigans so it is a lot harder to learn. Kharchev should probably not be used much if at all because he's such a beast in smaller games. At least until your friend gets a feel for his army and understands threat ranges. Stalkers are a great suggestion as well as a primaled feral with warped strength. That's two MAT9 P&S 19 attacks and a MAT9 P&S18 attack and he'll frenzy next turn. Pretty scary if you ask me.
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Post by samuraijaques on Jun 24, 2017 21:19:26 GMT
Thanks for all the great replies guys. Unfortunately my friend is very stubborn about getting advice and wants to make all the decisions on his own even if it means he's going to keep losing. We had a talk about the games earlier today and agreed that I'm gonna stop playing Karchev for a while and he's gonna try a different warcaaster that can hopefully do some more damage than wurmwood.
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Post by welshhoppo on Jun 24, 2017 21:39:21 GMT
Wormy is a very good scenario warlock. But he isn't that good at small point games.
Like I said, Circle find Khador hard to beat, we carry too much in the way of armour. Sure, Wormy can spit out boosted Hellmouths, but it only delays the inevitable, the argus light can't even scratch the paint on a Khador Jack. Whilst a stalker is able to do so provided he warps strength and Wormwood gets a curse of shadows off (he can get up to effective ps20 at that point.) that's still one heavy against 2. Cassius isn't going to be hunting down warjacks, and the Stalker is going to be within counter attacking range one he gets in to kill a heavy.
To want a chance, he needs a damage buff and he wants something else that can hit. Like a Gorax and a wolf of some kind.
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kuarnix
Junior Strategist
Posts: 145
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Post by kuarnix on Jun 25, 2017 0:27:17 GMT
Hey,
I think your friend should be abusing Stranglehold. If you are taking two 'jacks, he should not actually be attacking one of them unless the other can't get at his beast via Stranglehold, Rapid Growth, or a combination of these factors. The other thing is that the Moonhound is doing pretty much nothing in this list - probably a wild argus, a Gorax, or a Griffon would be better. As I'm sure he's discovered, if he loses his heavy, he is done. But honestly, he should probably be casting Stranglehold every turn he can. Another thing that might be helpful is if you play the Mangled Metal rules, i.e., if you lose your battlegroup beasts/'jacks you lose. this may make the game a little more difficult for you to win.
The other thing you can do is post this in the Circle forum, they can give you some advice. But I suspect it's going to be basically like 1) stranglehold, 2) if you bring a Gorax on your Primal turn (where you will kill a heavy) feat so the second heavy can't get to the Stalker or Wurmwood, then on the frenzy turn protect it with forests and more Stranglehold....yeah.
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Post by samuraijaques on Jun 25, 2017 1:29:51 GMT
I have noticed that strangelhold is easily the most powerful spell he has access to. It makes it very difficult to actually get a meaningful charge on his units. I have been relying on countercharge from Karchev and effective positioning to get my alpha.
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kuarnix
Junior Strategist
Posts: 145
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Post by kuarnix on Jun 25, 2017 3:13:25 GMT
I have noticed that strangelhold is easily the most powerful spell he has access to. It makes it very difficult to actually get a meaningful charge on his units. I have been relying on countercharge from Karchev and effective positioning to get my alpha. Yeah, agreed. With what he has, his toolbox is basically - -Stranglehold to make it difficult to counter-attack -Rapid Growth to deny you LoS or distance for counter-charge -Hellmouth to pull his Stalker (or your 'jack or 'caster) 3" further for extra threat range. That's about the extent of his control game. He could potentially also use Curse of Shadows to slink around and get to your 'caster, but, yeah.
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Post by GumbaFish on Jun 26, 2017 20:04:04 GMT
Just to elaborate a bit on some of the other points. Wurmwood is a difficult caster to play in the first place due to the nature of some of the mechanics and also isn't particularly suited to small battle box games. One primary reason for this is that there are not a lot of bodies on the table and therefore Wurmwood is unable to get souls to help fuel a lot of spell slinging. This is amplified by only having two beasts because it means that they need to keep active to fuel Wurmwood's spellcasting. Apart from that, if you are playing Karchev with a Kodiak and juggernaut you are effectively fielding 3 heavies against his single heavy. That makes his single warpwolf such a linchpin to the list that any small mistake where he looses it means its pretty grim.
If your friend wants to continue playing Wurmwood then I would suggest playing some larger points games to allow some more models on the table and give him access to things like troops for souls and as hellmouth targets. If you want to continue playing battle box games then I might suggest Baldur 1, Tanith (since she is in the box), or even Kromac 2. Either way, playing at a points level where he can have two heavies (you can do this at battle box with something like a feral and gnarlhorn satyr depending on the casters warbeast point) would certainly help over a heavy and a light.
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Post by ankiseth on Jun 27, 2017 1:25:31 GMT
Yeah Wurmwood really wants some cheap bodies on his side of the table. At the battlegroup level, he isn't benefiting from a bunch of his tools: he can't use Cassius to create forests, he doesn't have a chump to cast Hellmouth onto to pull models around, he's never going to have souls.
Circle really struggles against Khador lately. As someone who plays both factions, I almost never go against Khador intending to kill things, it's almost always a game of engineering tricky assassinations or else controlling the board hard enough to win on scenario with only a couple models left. It's tough to play a hard control game at low points. He's missing all his terrain generation, he doesn't have an option to bring Megalith for Geomancy-ed Strangleholds, he doesn't have any cheap models to use jamming or slowing you down.
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