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Post by Gamingdevil on Jun 22, 2017 15:06:45 GMT
Relax, I'm not actually calling for a nerf, but many people regard Denny 1 as our Haley 2: very powerful and frustrating to play against. This is exacerbated by Ghost Fleet's "I don't care about your defences" assassination potential, but is still the case even in other lists, so I wanted to make this a thought exercise on what would be acceptable as a change, keeping the identity and not nerfing into oblivion. 1. Warwitch DeneghraI think having Crippling Grasp on top of an another buff as well as having a stat affecting feat is pretty much part of the identity that PP envisions for her, so I don't think those are going away. If they want to keep Crippling Grasp as a spell, I don't think they can change much else, as it only affects stats in MK3, no more added effects like stopping Runs, Charges or Special Attacks, that's still reserved for the feat. Parasite and Venom are very fluffy for her, so I don't think those are going, so the options I see are, in order of preference: - They already toned down the feat a bit in the transition (no longer affects FOC), but if I had to choose something to change, I would probably make it allow Runs and Charges, but NOT Special Attacks. This way you could still make something basically useless by stacking Crippling Grasp on top of it, but it would be slightly easier for the opponent to contest by simply running something. It would also still stop most non-caster spells, which I think is important as Magic Ability is not something that is hampered by the feat.
- Another option is also to drop Scourge. It's a spell she's had for a long time, but it doesn't really scream Warwitch, perhaps it would be replaced by Blood Rain. This way your assassinations don't ignore defense and have 1 more ARM to deal with (will need Crippling Grasp instead of Parasite).
- If they're changing her anyway though, Dark Seduction either needs to get cheaper or needs to turn back into Influence. It's fluffy in that it's a parallel to Haley's Domination, but taking a jack for 1 attack is much better than taking a solo, especially when you can put that back into kill range of your army. It should probably go to COST 3 and then be fine.
- Maybe Stealth could go, to make her more vulnerable and easier to counter, but I really hope they don't do that. We don't have the CTRL range of Haley 2 and feating without Stealth would just get her killed in the middle of the board.
2. Ghost FleetThe only thing I can really see here is to go back to the Cannon Crew having Ghost Shot instead of the Rifles. I honestly don't even really understand why the Rifles needed Ghost Shot in the first place, as this makes them disparately better than their living Sea Dog counterparts. For the rest, I find that most lists that tech for infantry clearing can do enough to deal with the Recursion, considering you don't necessarily have to kill them all to neuter them. For spam infantry they are relatively expensive, so if you see the recurring pirates just as bodies that could've been bought in Mechanithralls, I don't think they are really over the top. What do you guys think?
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npe
Junior Strategist
Posts: 221
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Post by npe on Jun 22, 2017 16:08:03 GMT
I really like ghost fleet as is, it's just Denny1's superpowers that make it over the top. If Denny1 was tweaked (and our bottom tier caster's buffed) I'd be very happy.
One trick would be to make "the withering" LoS. It keeps Denny1's fluffy ability but at the same time if your opponent is screening their caster behind a jack you can't wither, scourge, parasite and then rifleman them to death.
I also agree with your idea about making Dark Domination 1 focus cheaper.
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Post by tiberius on Jun 22, 2017 16:47:27 GMT
LOS would bring it in line with other feats like Sorcha 1 which pretty much allows anything without focus to be useless and auto-hit the following turn, and skips their turn on your activation. But really, Denny1 has been this way since day 1 of the game, used to be even more powerful to be honest when her feat affected FOC, and while I understand a lot of people see her as a boogieman, she is really what defines Cryx playstyle.
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npe
Junior Strategist
Posts: 221
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Post by npe on Jun 22, 2017 17:09:21 GMT
LOS would bring it in line with other feats like Sorcha 1 which pretty much allows anything without focus to be useless and auto-hit the following turn, and skips their turn on your activation. But really, Denny1 has been this way since day 1 of the game, used to be even more powerful to be honest when her feat affected FOC, and while I understand a lot of people see her as a boogieman, she is really what defines Cryx playstyle. I don't have much problem with her in isolation, it's just that she's so much better than a lot of Cryx casters. A rebalancing of Cryx casters such that Denny1 was on the same power curve, as the rest of the Cryx stable would be great.
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Post by Swampmist on Jun 22, 2017 17:53:59 GMT
LOS would bring it in line with other feats like Sorcha 1 which pretty much allows anything without focus to be useless and auto-hit the following turn, and skips their turn on your activation. But really, Denny1 has been this way since day 1 of the game, used to be even more powerful to be honest when her feat affected FOC, and while I understand a lot of people see her as a boogieman, she is really what defines Cryx playstyle. I don't have much problem with her in isolation, it's just that she's so much better than a lot of Cryx casters. A rebalancing of Cryx casters such that Denny1 was on the same power curve, as the rest of the Cryx stable would be great. On the same level as the others, assuming the bottom is also brought up ofc
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Post by tarviche on Jun 22, 2017 18:25:08 GMT
I think nerfing Deneghra is a difficult issue, because she's so strong that the whole faction is built around her. Changing her significantly would mean that the rest of the faction would have to change significantly to make up for it.
The argument that if Deneghra were slightly debuffed and many other casters were buffed it would balance out--I think that's plausible. But it's still an enormous task and very similar to a full-faction ground-up rebalance, because warcasters are so fundamental and complex.
I really enjoy playing Deneghra because Crippling Grasp, Parasite, Venom, and Scourge are spells that are potent and useful but require lots of thought. I like that she has a really strong spell list and Stealth but is quite fragile and has very little personal threat. It's a great contrast with Cryx's many undead casters who are much beefier.
The feat is nice because it's so powerful, but I feel guilty using it. I feel that, like many control feats, it's flavourful and effective, but it's not fun to play against. Crippling Grasp can take an opponent's model out of the game for multiple turns, but her feat is in many cases a "lose a turn" effect for the whole army, which is the least fun effect in almost any game IMO.
This is hardly unique to Deneghra, of course, as there are many powerful control feats and defensive feats that have a similar result: a minimal, impotent or pointless turn for the opponent (big DEF buffs, big ARM buffs, giant pie plates of terrain, lost actions, mass knockdown/freeze, etc.). Not everyone dislikes them, and that's okay, because they're probably embedded in the game for good. I just prefer soft control feats like Asphyxious 3's (I love that feat!) or hard control feats that are much narrower, like e.g. Venethrax's.
So I guess the obvious change is to remove the restriction on runs and charges (or restrict running only, as per e.g. Icy Grip). Even a SPD debuff is pretty harsh by itself and can still get you the alpha next turn while improving your shooting this turn.
The suggestion of LOS for feat effect is also pretty plausible; Deneghra's hardly braindead to play, and the feat already involves balancing the aggressive positioning to optimize the effects of the feat and risk being attacked, so emphasizing that could work. She'd have to take more risks to affect more models.
As for Ghost Fleet, I think it's important not to nerf it in a way that dramatically reduces the effectiveness of the Rev Crew outside of theme. I quite like them outside of theme, and I think part of the success of Ghost Fleet is that Rev Crew were more powerful even before the theme than people realized. I also like that the theme sacrifices a lot of variety and utility for its powerful recursion and many free points. I've seen some suggestions that are almost there but are probably too much or too little (FA:2 on the crew, which they won't do; making their recursion cost their combat action, which would probably require a significant point drop and require a rebalance).
I've also seen some suggestions that Ghost Fleet is too good even independent of Deneghra, specifically with Coven, but I'm not sure that's the case.
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Post by Gamingdevil on Jun 23, 2017 7:21:59 GMT
Hmm, I'm not sure if I would agree with the LoS part. Denny 1 likes to play a lot of infantry, so it would be very hard to actually draw LoS to a lot of enemies simply because your own models are in the way. Besides that, something like Sorcha 1 actually completely shuts down opposing infantry and only needs to stay safe against jacks/casters. She also has something to let her get back to safety and be DEF 18, after moving ahead of the army and feating, or she can simply move 12" to get to a better feat place and still be pretty safe at DEF 18.
Needing LoS for The Withering would mean Deneghra has to move completely ahead of her army, at only SPD 7 and then be in a very tight spot. I think this would be too much for her or she would need a complete rebalance to incorporate more movement shenanigans and I don't think that's going to happen.
I agree that Ghost Fleet in itself isn't necessarily too strong, but I understand that it can be very frustrating to play against.
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Makrar
Baby's First Wargame
Posts: 7
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Post by Makrar on Jun 23, 2017 14:40:01 GMT
I think the revenant crew need a slight tone down. I would modify Deathbound on the Revenants to destroy the model if it ends its activation outside of command (And at the same time allow returned models to be placed next to the unit commander)
This stops people parking models in deployment zones / so far away that opponents cannot kill the unit which feels abusive to me.
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Post by Gamingdevil on Jun 23, 2017 14:55:56 GMT
I think the revenant crew need a slight tone down. I would modify Deathbound on the Revenants to destroy the model if it ends its activation outside of command (And at the same time allow returned models to be placed next to the unit commander) This stops people parking models in deployment zones / so far away that opponents cannot kill the unit which feels abusive to me. The thing with the unit Leader is intentional as they even clarified it, it's supposed to be the weakness. About keeping a Revenant far back to "seed", that's perfectly in line with other recursion mechanics, and honestly, if your 2-4 dudes have to spawn all the way in the back field, they're not going to do much that turn. It can be frustrating for your opponent, but it does offer a way to control them. I've also had people actually be able to get to my backline model(s) from time to time, though I'll admit it's very annoying for melee armies. Against melee armies it's not even really needed to keep a model that far back though. It's also a trade off as you can't target the unit with friendly spells.
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Makrar
Baby's First Wargame
Posts: 7
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Post by Makrar on Jun 23, 2017 15:11:01 GMT
Sure its intentional but its not immediately obvious when reading the rules and the whole thing feels like a technical loophole? (if that makes sense) However I can take or leave it to be honest.
Regarding "seeding" as you put it, well i 100% disagree that its perfectly in line with other recursion mechanics. Theres nothing else really that comes close to the self contained combat action allowed recursion mechanic these guys bring and its shows. It feels out of character/intent to hold models back out of range to take advantage of how its recursion is worded. I dont really think its a big nerf overall but it makes a bit easier for your opponent to take out a complete unit which isnt there currently.
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Grimolf
Junior Strategist
Posts: 246
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Post by Grimolf on Jun 23, 2017 15:26:05 GMT
Errmm. I've seen PP do readjustments to other strong casters (e.g. Una2) and they're not delicate about it. I'd want to see the boosting of other casters (and jacks and units) *before* they try to bring Denny1 in line. For example, I'd be happy to see them do something to help Aiakos2 just a little! Maybe give him stealth! ;-)
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Post by Gamingdevil on Jun 23, 2017 15:27:42 GMT
Sure its intentional but its not immediately obvious when reading the rules and the whole thing feels like a technical loophole? (if that makes sense) However I can take or leave it to be honest. Regarding "seeding" as you put it, well i 100% disagree that its perfectly in line with other recursion mechanics. Theres nothing else really that comes close to the self contained combat action allowed recursion mechanic these guys bring and its shows. It feels out of character/intent to hold models back out of range to take advantage of how its recursion is worded. I dont really think its a big nerf overall but it makes a bit easier for your opponent to take out a complete unit which isnt there currently. Keeping one model back for things like Mockery of Life or Revive has been abused since MK 2, or maybe even before, that's what I mean by perfectly in line. To actually keep that seed model safe, it basically needs to be hugging the edge of the board and/or be behind terrain. If your recurred models are back that far, they generally won't do much besides running or taking some pot shots at something that is probably in melee. If they do the latter, they have only moved 6" and are probably still pretty close to the edge of the board, lessening their overal impact on the game. I'll admit that it is a possible option for a tweak though and it would make sense fluff-wise that the Revenants have to stay close to their quartermaster.
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