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Post by babadook on Jun 22, 2017 8:19:13 GMT
Hi guys, I am currently preparing for a team tournament in August and will have another small single player event in July. My team-mates would prefer me to play Cygnar, as we want to perform well, so I need to desperately find the most competitive pairing for my Minions in order to persuade them. This is what I have come up with for now: [Theme] The Blindwater Congregation (Rask 1) Rask [+27] - Blackhide Wrastler [16] - Blackhide Wrastler [16] - Bull Snapper [0(5)] Bog Trog Mist Speaker [0(4)] Totem Hunter [0(6)] Bog Trog Ambushers (min) [10] Gatorman Bokor & Bog Trog Swamp Shamblers [11] Gatorman Posse (min) [10] Gatorman Posse (min) [10] Gatorman Posse (min) [10] Gatorman Posse (max) [17] Swamp Gobbers Bellows Crew [2] [Theme] The Blindwater Congregation (Calaban 1) Calaban, the Grave Walker [+29] - Blackhide Wrastler [16] - Blind Walker [12] - Ironback Spitter [15] Bog Trog Mist Speaker [0(4)] Feralgeist [2] Feralgeist [2] Swamp Gobber Chef [1] Viktor Pendrake [0(4)] Croak Raiders (max) [17] Gatorman Posse (min) [10] Gatorman Posse (min) [10] Gatorman Posse (max) [17] Swamp Gobbers Bellows Crew [2] My thoughts on the pairing: Rask: Skorne, Trollbloods, Minions, Cygnar, Khador, CoC, RoS Calaban: Legion, Circle, Menoth, Cryx The Rask list can handle heavy ARM Skew pretty well and has some resilience against shooting due to the feat. It lacks a hit buff and which is why Calaban will be handling the more DEF oriented factions as well as the factions were RFP might be needed. I am wondering if you have any better pairings in mind. I want to be able to play into the usual boogeymen: Haley2 (will always be difficult, but I want to have a game at least!) Ghostfleet (THE boogeyman of the day!) Skorne with double Kittens (Really annoying list!) Skorne with Rasheth Gunline (Another even more annoying list!) My hope is that Rask will take on Skorne and Haley2, while the Calaban should be able to have a game into the Ghostfleet. Slightly favoured into the Coven and slightly uphill against Denny1. I am looking for advice, opinions and experience from you guys!  If I end up with something completely different, I am absolutely fine with it. I want to end up with the most effective pairing! Also if I were to drop one Matchup I would probably drop the Cryx Ghostfleet, as I am positive it will get a nerf in the upcoming Errata. |
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dagowit
Junior Strategist
Posts: 171
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Post by dagowit on Jun 22, 2017 8:58:24 GMT
When you say "Minions", do you actually mean "Blindwater"? I don't think you need Farrow to have a strong pairing but it is just nice to know what your limits are.
Secondly, if Ghost Fleet is the big boogeyman (and there is no incoming nerf), I would take a long, hard look at Jaga-Jaga. Her feat messes with recursion (if you get the leaders under your control, your opponent does not get to promote a new leader which means returning models cannot be placed). She also provides magical weapons for everyone.
Some of the others and what I have found:
Haley2: Arkadius can counter-feat to really mess with her feat (you move due to frenzy and then activate afterwards, forfeit movement and smash away).
Skorne kittens: Maelok makes them very sad due to Mortality (worse stats and no healing ruins the list).
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Post by kombat46 on Jun 22, 2017 9:08:38 GMT
Calaban is a very strong counter to ghost fleet especially if you can get 1 or 2 sacral vaults into the list (remember you can have give it stealth for extra protection) i dobt think posse is very good with calaban so would try to switch them out for vaults. Jaga-jaga is not that great ibto ghost fleet as it might seem. With Rask it should be posse spam. I have run rask, 2 wrastler, 2 bull snappers Pendrake and 7 min posse and it has been quite successful. Basically you play rask into 90% of the field and drop calaban into the match up if you think your opponent might drop a dude spam list. Many times rask can handle dude spam too but calaban is slightly more favourable and alot better into ghost fleet/recursion match ups.
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Post by babadook on Jun 22, 2017 11:18:09 GMT
When I say Minions I mean Eggs and Bacon! Just the best we have to offer. I currently feel, that Calaban is needed because of the Ghostfleet and I guess nothing goes past Rask! That means, I would not mind playing Arkadius, but I feel, that will make my pairing worse. However, I am open to listen to more experienced Minion players! You would not even use the Bokur and Shamblers with Rask? In my opinion, they are an auto-include because Rask gets more or less unkillable. |
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Post by Korianneder on Jun 22, 2017 12:47:00 GMT
If Farrow is an option then I'd go for Arkadius over Rask. Right now your two lists are basically the same just led by different warlocks. They are each heavily melee focused with an emphasis on the posse. Dropping Rask for Arkadius will give you a better list into Haley 2 and will give you a very different list. Arkadius can bring a lot more guns and a lot more beasts. Especially in a team tournament it would force your opponent to have to figure out which list to drop. Most players have one list to deal with heavies and one list to deal with infantry with the rise of ghost fleet and Cryx. Arkadius can play into most of the same matchups Rask can, so it wouldn't make your pairing worse.
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Post by Azahul on Jun 22, 2017 12:57:30 GMT
I'm of the opinion that Arkadius is the strongest Warlock in Minions right now, though I'll concede that it is a close thing between him and Rask. I'd say that Arkadius has the strongest game into Haley2 of any Warlock in Minions, for example. Still probably a game in the Haley player's favour, but you have the strongest assassination play in the faction in your pocket, and the same goes for a lot of bad match-ups. I've won so many impossible attrition games through Arkadius's ridiculous assassination pressure.
That said, Seikishi's point that having two lists with greater differences is something you should consider. Forcing your opponent to actually think about which list to drop is a good thing. I suspect an Arkadius/Calaban pairing would cover the overwhelming majority of the meta right now, and is honestly probably the best pairing Minions can field (though I'm not speaking from personal experience, since I only play the pig side of things).
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Post by babadook on Jun 22, 2017 13:47:56 GMT
This is really interesting to hear, Arkadius has been the reason for me to start Minions so this suggestion is kicking in an open door! However, I am not sold on having two entirely different lists, as this can mean list chickens as well, which I really would like to circumvent if possible.
I see that it can be beneficial, but I could lose on that mindgame, especially if you assume your opponent knows what your lists can do and he does not...
How would you setup an Arkadius list at the moment? I assume a beast heavy theme force, wouldn't a list that counters this also counter a list with GMP Spam, too?
And what would you drop into very shooty lists? I am afraid that both the Doc as well as Calaban can be shot of the table by some gunlines running around at the moment!
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Post by zwergenkrieger on Jun 22, 2017 17:12:33 GMT
How would you setup an Arkadius list at the moment? I assume a beast heavy theme force, wouldn't a list that counters this also counter a list with GMP Spam, too? My Arkadius list right now is: Dr. Ark Targ 2 Gorax Ragers 2 Splatter Boars 2 Road Hogs 2 War Hogs 2 Feral Gheists Hutchuk Gobber Chef I´m not a tournament player, but I regularly play against tournament players and this list does pretty well. You can drop the Feral Gheists for something else (e.g. 2nd Gobber Chef and Bellows Crew – though you will be 1 pt short then) and be in Theme then. Retaliatory Strike can be game changing if you get that critical knock down on the gore attack, but it still is a gamble. It´s relatively good on a Primaled heavy warbeast because you can get some attacks out of it then no matter the auto frenzy. Splatter Boars are there to provide some cover on the approach, some play Gun Boars instead, because Gun Boars provide better accuracy and therefore are able to reliably remove single targets. Have a look at Azahuls otc batrep thread, there you will find his Arkadius list. I second Azahul in that Arkadius always offers a good assasination threat. ZK |
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Post by Azahul on Jun 22, 2017 20:45:26 GMT
How would you setup an Arkadius list at the moment? I assume a beast heavy theme force, wouldn't a list that counters this also counter a list with GMP Spam, too? My Arkadius list is currently: Doctor Arkadius (Thornfall Alliance theme) -War Hog -War Hog -Road Hog -Road Hog -Gun Boar -Gun Boar -Splatter Boar -Gorax -Targ Hutchuck Gobber Chef Gobber Chef If you run into something neither list can handle, you have two Primal Shocks, two Road Hog sprays, and two Gun Boars (at least one Rat 7) to try and get an "out" if the opponent's Warcaster comes within 25". If they get as close as 19" then you start having melee options too. That said, I think you'll find that nearly every list in the game right now will have enough armour cracking to kill both this list and the GMP. That's the state of the meta right now. What is more important is whether you can kill them faster. This list offers exceptionally high threat ranges, some ridiculous assassination angles, and the combination of Aggravator and Retaliatory Strike on Warbeasts with Crit Knockdown can be terribly rude. Most battlegroup heavy lists will fold to this. Even gun lines, which certainly can be problematic, are sometimes unable to get a turn of shooting in. I've played into Nemo3 Heavy Metal lists where my opponent only got 2-3 extra damage dice out of his Feat because Dynamo's walk and shoot threat was shorter than my War Hog's charge threat, so just about every electric gun in the list was dead or engaged by the time he Feated. In a very real sense it often feels like Arkadius gets the same free turn without being shot at that Rask does, just by moving twice as fast. Honestly, it's not so much that either list poses a question the meta can't answer, but they bring different enough tools to provide their own answers to an opponent's problem. |
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Post by Azahul on Jun 22, 2017 23:39:45 GMT
Specifically looking to the bookeymen you've got, have you considered a non-theme list with Calaban? As I said before, I can't go beyond theory with this, but he seems like he'd get good use out of Brigands. A Sacral Vault (particularly if this event takes place post-errata, which from the sound of it won't be too far off) provides you with ranged RFP. And Bone Grinders basically hard counter the Makeda2 kitty list (one or two max units, add Carnivore, set up as a second line).
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Post by babadook on Jun 23, 2017 8:01:30 GMT
@ Dr.Ark Thanks for the insights, I have played Arkadius way differently in the past in a way more controlled matter, but I see, where this list is coming from! It is something I will have to play a couple of times and see if it fits my playstyle. Why the Hutchuk in theme? I would rather go with a min. Unit of Bone Grinders to have something you can put into scenario and potentially run into position to be a charge target. @calaban out of theme Thought about it yes, but at the same time I do like the GMP with him as he is actually doing a lot for them. The Sacral Vault is definitely something I should think about including though. It could really push Calaban into a position, where he can actually deal well with the Ghostfleet instead of having a game. The Bone Grinders vs. the Kittens sounds like a very good idea, too. I will have to dojo a little bit and try this pairing... (Calaban 1) Calaban, the Grave Walker [+29] - Blackhide Wrastler [16] - Blind Walker [12] - Ironback Spitter [15] - Targ [4] Bog Trog Mist Speaker [4] Feralgeist [2] Feralgeist [2] Gobber Tinker [2] Farrow Bone Grinders (max) [8] Farrow Brigands (max) [15] - Farrow Brigand Warlord [4] Swamp Gobbers Bellows Crew [2] Sacral Vault (CID) [18] [Theme] The Thornfall Alliance (Arkadius 1) Dr. Arkadius [+32] - Battle Boar [7] - Gun Boar [9] - Gun Boar [9] - Road Hog [16] - Road Hog [16] - Splatter Boar [8] - War Hog [15] - War Hog [15] - Targ [4] Swamp Gobber Chef [1] Swamp Gobber Chef [1] Farrow Bone Grinders (min) [5] |
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dagowit
Junior Strategist
Posts: 171
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Post by dagowit on Jun 23, 2017 10:27:30 GMT
Calaban is a very strong counter to ghost fleet especially if you can get 1 or 2 sacral vaults into the list (remember you can have give it stealth for extra protection) i dobt think posse is very good with calaban so would try to switch them out for vaults. Jaga-jaga is not that great ibto ghost fleet as it might seem. Good to know! I trust your experience more than our local Ghost Fleet players (who completely freaked out and started ranting at the thought of facing Jaga-Jaga). My fiancée has started running Jaga-Jaga with Spitters and a Sacral Vault (soon to be 2 of them, I fear) and it has been much harder to deal with than her original 'beast/Posse-heavy lists. Similarly, she switched Calaban from 'beasts to Farrow Brigands + CA, Efaarit Scouts, and Nyss Hunters and that list tends to shoot all opposition (including Khador Heavies) off the table in a way that Gatorman Posse certainly couldn't. As I only play Farrow, I'm obviously biased but I feel Arkadius offers angles it is difficult for your opponent to play around (and many do not expect the 17-19" melee threat). My list is similar to Azahul's, by the way, although I really like a unit of Bone Grinders in there for Craft Talisman. For some reason I am exceptionally good at getting my Primal and Forced Evolution targets about 7" away from Arkadius' landing spot. Obviously, I'm a huge fan of your proposed list  |
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Post by Azahul on Jun 23, 2017 10:55:12 GMT
@ Dr.Ark Thanks for the insights, I have played Arkadius way differently in the past in a way more controlled matter, but I see, where this list is coming from! It is something I will have to play a couple of times and see if it fits my playstyle. Why the Hutchuk in theme? I would rather go with a min. Unit of Bone Grinders to have something you can put into scenario and potentially run into position to be a charge target. I wish I could fit the Bone Grinders in. Hutchuck offers a few things they don't though. The first is simple. He breaks up the line of engagement. Not all of my opponent's threats are going to be in front of them. Against melee-centric lists dealing with Hutchuck will usually remove models worth as much or more than him from the fight for 1-2 turns, which can be a big deal. It also adds in his 16" threat from each board side into my opponent's decision making. Arkadius has a lot of threats to consider, and now their Warcaster is limited to 16" stretch down the middle of the table (which is usually where all my other attacks are threatening) or else they're copping a Quake Bomb in the butt. Secondly, Bone Grinders are a support unit and usually behind Arkadius. Their capacity to contest/score in the early-mid game is usually pretty limited in my experience. Hutchuck's ability to pop up and contest, say, one flag on Incursion while I focus my battlegroup heavy list on the other two is invaluable. Third, the main utility Bone Grinders provide Arkadius is range 10 Crippling Grasps. Awesome, but I'd rather have Arkadius further back and camping more. With Warmachine as prevalent as it is, Hutchuck lets me get a comparative Arm debuff on the field without exposing my Warcaster or sinking 3-4 Fury into the endeavour. Against Hordes he has Quake for a comparable Def debuff, which has also proven pretty useful against enemy Cavalry. A lot of people run their cavalry models out on the flanks and Hutchuck knocking 1-2 down with Quake, killing one with his charge, and contesting 1-2 others can get a disproportionate amount of work done. I do wish I had 3 more points in the list to get the Bone Grinders in (dropping the Gobber Chefs), but when I make the choice Hutchuck does come out on top. I do miss the extra threat on Crippling Grasp quite a lot, it's now almost exclusively an anti-Amon spell. |
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Post by baronvonsvex on Jul 3, 2017 15:02:06 GMT
As someone who mostly uses Rask as his main problem solver I'm really interested about picking up Arkadius to switch it up. I play Rask with 4 max posse in theme and it provides a very flexible toolkit, but lack of assassination tools makes some matchups very rough (like cygnar and Khador jack spam).
I can see their feats being simular to obtain the alpha, but not having access to pathfinder is a bit scary with SR17 around the corner.
From most of Azahul's batreps I guess you shouldn't be scared to frenzy once in a while. But again not really used to that. When is a good time to go hot and get stuff done? Is that also where you abuse the feat to frenzy your heavy hitters to the front and clear your backline of fury?
I'll have to see how that works out, arkadius is one of my favorite casters.
The calaban list I'm currently running/working on is:
Calaban blindwater theme
^Spitter
^Blindwalker
^Wrastler
Sacral vault
Bog trog mist speaker (free)
Totem hunter (free)
Viktor Pendrake (free)
Croak raiders max
Croak raiders min
Posse max (blindwater)
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Post by zwergenkrieger on Jul 3, 2017 17:44:39 GMT
Regarding Arkadius:
Before the game you should ask yourself a couple questions:
1.) Am I able to remove all that ARM on the other side of the table?
2.) Do the opponents beasts / jacks outthreat my stuff?
ad 1.) If you´re not able to remove all that ARM, then assassination might be your best bet. In that case hold back your feat until the opposing warnoun is in threat range of 2 of your heavy hitters. You might need more hitters to clear the path, though.
ad 2.) If they outthreat you, you simply have to feat for the alpha. When this will happen depends on the movement of the opposing force. I quite regularly feat turn 2 if I´m the first player. I´ve done it first turn too as a second player when my opponent was in feat threat range.
Whenever I feat for an alpha I only do it if I´m able to remove at least 3 heavies of my opponent. Note that you can use the feat to reposition your entire army, meaning that you kill something and the rest of your force positions for good later turns (scenario, counter attack or what else).
"When to get hot?"
Do mean when to go all out on fury or when to feat? When to feat => see above.
When to get all out on fury: Well, If you´re going for the alpha, you need fury and lots of it. And you often need Primal due to the fact that there is a lot of metal and meat out there. You only field 4-5 heavies in most cases and you have to get the most out of them, therefore Primal is your friend.
Whenever I cast Primal on a beast that beast will go hot on fury. Maxed out fury if possible. It is going to frenzy no matter what, therefore I want to get the most out of it. Normally I cast Primal on 3 heavies when I go for an alpha, sometimes on 4 if I´m able to remove all of the opposing heavy hitters then. I will give my opponent a turn of no heavy beast action then, but sometimes it´s a good trade. (btw that´s when the Farrow Theme plays to its strenghts)
Forced Evolution is normally cast on a Road Hog because it will have a nice P+S then but is still able to go to a nice spot due to sprint (animus) without having to frenzy next turn.
My light warbeasts do not contribute that much to a feat turn simply because I don´t want to go all out on fury. I will still be able to threaten the opposing army the turn after. That´s why i like to run 2 Gorax Ragers. Fully supported they are able to remove a heavy (in conjunction of course). All they normally do during feat turn is casting their animus on the heavies that have to go wild.
My shooting lights are only used for spot removal during feat turnsor to run in good positions. Raw Adrenaline helps to spare fury here as well as Gobber Chef and Maltreatment are helping with fury control.
Hope that helps.
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If I end up with something completely different, I am absolutely fine with it. I want to end up with the most effective pairing! Also if I were to drop one Matchup I would probably drop the Cryx Ghostfleet, as I am positive it will get a nerf in the upcoming Errata.
