Haight
Junior Strategist
Posts: 396
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Post by Haight on Mar 9, 2017 22:16:00 GMT
Interesting perspective Cluster, thanks for sharing.
What's of particular interest is i had never heard of the Focus and Fury / Komitatus censoring requests / demands, etc. That's certainly a new one to me, but it actually would explain a bunch of stuff.
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Post by welshhoppo on Mar 9, 2017 22:19:17 GMT
I am going to flip this around and say that the demolition of the PG corp and the faction forums is an excellent thing for the health of the game. Since late Mk1 / early Mk2 when PP started sanitizing the forums by removing the Crow's Nest; threatening Focus and Fury as well Komitatus admins with loss of PG status if they didn't censor their forums; and general crack down on critical discussion in the remaining venues, the faction and general discussion forums were a useless cess pool. Mk2's mediocre balance and Mk3's systemic issues are a direct by product of people being unable to discuss issues with the game vigorously and critical voices being silenced in favor of echo chambers chasing short sighted, selfish interests. PGs to a certain extent were part of this problem. While some of the old guard were more than willing to call out PP when it made mistakes, most of them have fallen by the wayside and been replaced by loud-mouthed gatekeepers of communities that can scarcely play Rules as Written, because they're wrapped up in their own perverse baggage from prior GW experience et al.. The PGs ossified many of the worst traits of the communities they came from, and rather than being agents to change and improve the game play experiences, continued to argue for and reinforce the very mediocrity that would allow their community fiefdoms to grow, even as the quality of the game sank. With both of these things largely neutered, and a more direct line of play test communication set up in the CID, I have high hopes that Pagani and friends can rectify the issues that Soules and DC brought to the game over the last decade. Sure, Soules is still going to give us Grymkin - but I hope that without PGs trying to sanitize the rules in order to keep fan-favorite factions like Khador and Cygnar strong, and without forums of mediocre players making fallacious arguments about why the Mad Dog, Elemental Communion, or Una2 don't need to be changed, PP can finally return to making a decent competitive game that represents the best balanced wargame in the industry. I'm not saying they don't exist, but I have literally never met a PG who acted that way, and PGs had no special access to or influence over rules in development other than Steamroller packets (which were handled basically like CID is now). Well to be fair, in the grand scheme of a planet wide group, how many PGs did you meet?
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Post by ClusterFSCK on Mar 9, 2017 22:30:47 GMT
I am going to flip this around and say that the demolition of the PG corp and the faction forums is an excellent thing for the health of the game. Since late Mk1 / early Mk2 when PP started sanitizing the forums by removing the Crow's Nest; threatening Focus and Fury as well Komitatus admins with loss of PG status if they didn't censor their forums; and general crack down on critical discussion in the remaining venues, the faction and general discussion forums were a useless cess pool. Mk2's mediocre balance and Mk3's systemic issues are a direct by product of people being unable to discuss issues with the game vigorously and critical voices being silenced in favor of echo chambers chasing short sighted, selfish interests. PGs to a certain extent were part of this problem. While some of the old guard were more than willing to call out PP when it made mistakes, most of them have fallen by the wayside and been replaced by loud-mouthed gatekeepers of communities that can scarcely play Rules as Written, because they're wrapped up in their own perverse baggage from prior GW experience et al.. The PGs ossified many of the worst traits of the communities they came from, and rather than being agents to change and improve the game play experiences, continued to argue for and reinforce the very mediocrity that would allow their community fiefdoms to grow, even as the quality of the game sank. With both of these things largely neutered, and a more direct line of play test communication set up in the CID, I have high hopes that Pagani and friends can rectify the issues that Soules and DC brought to the game over the last decade. Sure, Soules is still going to give us Grymkin - but I hope that without PGs trying to sanitize the rules in order to keep fan-favorite factions like Khador and Cygnar strong, and without forums of mediocre players making fallacious arguments about why the Mad Dog, Elemental Communion, or Una2 don't need to be changed, PP can finally return to making a decent competitive game that represents the best balanced wargame in the industry. I'm not saying they don't exist, but I have literally never met a PG who acted that way, and PGs had no special access to or influence over rules in development other than Steamroller packets (which were handled basically like CID is now). It's a nice carte blanche statement, but it is inaccurate. I've watched PGs at cons use their booth access to PP employees to discuss issues of concern to them and influence the outcomes of discussions in rules debates. I've listened to the after hours discussions between PP staff and PGs at bars in Templecon and GenCon, and talked with folks about their experiences at WMW. I've watched changes suggested by PGs in the PG forums make their way into later expansions, particularly in Mk1 and early Mk2 when they were still considered rules authorities, and the Judges program had not started. To believe that all PGs had or exercised this degree of access, particularly as their ranks swelled, is silly. However to not acknowledge that they didn't have opportunities and avenues to influence the game development in ways the average player didn't is just as silly. In years past I had the opportunity to travel a lot for work, particularly in the U.S.. I'd usually take models and play at random game stores where I went, and meet random PGs in the course of doing so. For every PG I encountered that experienced about the rules and sought to instill a sense of competition, there were many more who were phoning it in, scarcely more knowledgable than the players they were demoing games to, and completely lax about any attitude of competitive spirit. These are the same people you could find supporting arguments that Haley 2 was fair at Mk2 launch, even as they Female Doged about Amon Ad Raza's beta form in the next breath, only to find out they were Cygnar players as was half their community. You'd find people Female Doging about how the Old Witch was garbage at the height of Mk2 infantry machine, and demanding the WGDS be upgraded to be "better" than Bane Knights. Within their communities, and without, just because these arguments came with a green PG_ tag as part of the name, they'd often be considered with more weight than the other dozen hoi polloi they were arguing with. Those same arguments were central to Mk2's failings, and to a certain extent reflected in several Mk3 issues.
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Post by phantasmagorium on Mar 9, 2017 22:33:12 GMT
I'm not saying they don't exist, but I have literally never met a PG who acted that way, and PGs had no special access to or influence over rules in development other than Steamroller packets (which were handled basically like CID is now). Well to be fair, in the grand scheme of a planet wide group, how many PGs did you meet? Hmm... well, if we just round the number of total PGs to 1000, so I've met two or three percent of them in person and run events with half of those. I know a great many more either over the internet or through friends we have in common as part of the larger community (eg, through my friends at HCO). Which is why I didn't say they don't exist, just that I've never met any - particularly in regards to trying to influence to rules, since we have (had) no actual input on them - at least, no more than any other non-employee had.
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Post by protocon on Mar 9, 2017 22:42:26 GMT
I am going to flip this around and say that the demolition of the PG corp and the faction forums is an excellent thing for the health of the game. [...] PP can finally return to making a decent competitive game that represents the best balanced wargame in the industry. It's like a time travelled commentary on the GW Outriders and forum
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Post by onyxweapon on Mar 10, 2017 0:48:13 GMT
Time will tell, my hopes are high for positive change, but I feel PP needs to fire out some fast and drastic changes to subsidize these moves or risk a sudden halt in new playerbase as their faction resources have been actively cut.
My final points redemption will still be one last shirt though.
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Post by Tekanan on Mar 10, 2017 3:20:25 GMT
I'm not saying they don't exist, but I have literally never met a PG who acted that way, and PGs had no special access to or influence over rules in development other than Steamroller packets (which were handled basically like CID is now). It's a nice carte blanche statement, but it is inaccurate. I've watched PGs at cons use their booth access to PP [...] reflected in several Mk3 issues. To be honest, I do not see anything wrong with this. Despite some issues, I found Mk.2 to be fantastic! More so than Mk.3. Something right must've happened there. It is just one of the ways PP listens to feedback from the community besides the forums.
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Haight
Junior Strategist
Posts: 396
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Post by Haight on Mar 10, 2017 12:08:56 GMT
Time will tell, my hopes are high for positive change, but I feel PP needs to fire out some fast and drastic changes to subsidize these moves or risk a sudden halt in new playerbase as their faction resources have been actively cut. My final points redemption will still be one last shirt though. My fear is we've seen the fast and drastic changes for the foreseeable future. They'd really have to work hard to one up the shake ups from this week. I get that they are a business and they are almost assuredly doing what they feel is best for the business, and i'm certain there's lots of moving parts their consumer base doesn't / can't see. That said, consumers of this type of product are inherently tribal and emotional. I think that is why we're seeing ripples. Two major, drastic moves which can be (in a negative light) seen as putting a proverbial bullet in a large portion of the game's centralized community as it has been known for 13-14 years is going to cause some ripples. I suppose we'll see. The thing is, decisive action is usually a good thing. However when it has negative connotations, those stick around for a while. People still talk about GW and the outriders and its been... a long time. I have a feeling the negative aspects of these moves are going to stick around like so much fallout for a long time. Ultimately that's a shame, because the why's or wherefore's, whether good, bad, smart, or dumb, are going to get lost to the vagaries of time. But that lingering "remember the time when (company) shuttered (program), look how (bad?) that decision ended up!" perspective is really hard to undo. GW is still living with it. It's not a perspective (right or wrong) i would have ever wished on PP.
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Post by charlzheimer on Mar 10, 2017 18:00:18 GMT
about the granny lawsuit => 3rd degree burns is the same as having your body cooked as if it was a medium-rare steak....except your alive...amputation is a valid treatment. old clumsy or not if you gotten coffee and took a sip 2 minutes later your tongue would be Firetrucking gone. mc donalds served at illigal temparatures.
about the PP situation => too early to tell how fast shit will hit the fan....wait and see i guess.
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keebs
Baby's First Wargame
Posts: 3
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Post by keebs on Mar 10, 2017 18:19:31 GMT
This might be an unpopular opinion...but I don't think this is really that big of a deal as long as PP does actually work with stores to organize events.
I know some PGs have been super dedicated and really done well by their communities but in my experience a lot of them didn't. I don't think it was ever organized well enough to make sure that PG's were actually engaging in their communities to a reasonable level. I've seen a handful of PGs who got rewards for doing absolute minimal work and did less for their community than most of the average players.
For the people who have been truly engaged and dedicated to their work as PGs this does suck...but you don't have to stop doing what you were doing. You can still bring people in and help organize and be a cornerstone of your WMH community.
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vitzh
Baby's First Wargame
Posts: 8
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Post by vitzh on Mar 10, 2017 19:09:38 GMT
Interesting perspective Cluster, thanks for sharing. What's of particular interest is i had never heard of the Focus and Fury / Komitatus censoring requests / demands, etc. That's certainly a new one to me, but it actually would explain a bunch of stuff. My brother, Benesh, was told to censor things in F&F. Not the forum but the podcast itself. He stepped down as a PG because of it.
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Post by Aeternyx on Mar 10, 2017 19:14:02 GMT
This might be an unpopular opinion...but I don't think this is really that big of a deal as long as PP does actually work with stores to organize events. I know some PGs have been super dedicated and really done well by their communities but in my experience a lot of them didn't. I don't think it was ever organized well enough to make sure that PG's were actually engaging in their communities to a reasonable level. I've seen a handful of PGs who got rewards for doing absolute minimal work and did less for their community than most of the average players. For the people who have been truly engaged and dedicated to their work as PGs this does suck...but you don't have to stop doing what you were doing. You can still bring people in and help organize and be a cornerstone of your WMH community. I think this is strictly a function of what your LGS is like. The shop in my immediate area has no interest in doing anything at all unless it is directly and obviously raking in money. So basically, unless it's magic or 40k, it's not getting help, support, or interest from the owner. They have exactly 5 Warmahordes items on the shelves. This is not a person who's going to work on building up interest in Privateer's stuff and or be bothered to reach out to them for tournament packs. He's just going to keep milking the same cash cows he always does. There is a PG here, and for that reason, there is some token respect paid to Warmahordes one night a week, but without a PG, there would be no scene here at all. Honestly, the closest shop that does Warmahordes for me now is 40 minutes away and it's a teeny tiny hole in the wall without much appeal. As many have pointed out, I suspect most PG's will be less inclined to drive all over creation and work with difficult store owners like ours now that they have absolutely no incentive whatsoever for doing so. This is status quo for some communities, but for a lot of others, it's flat out bad. I understand why it's being done, but I don't think a single community will be actually improved by this.
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Post by gunmageintraining on Mar 10, 2017 19:14:47 GMT
I think, though the actual actions themselves will cause the community to waste away, the fact that they took the actions so suddenly and without warning is more damning. It's effectively breaking the communities knee-caps, and then dumping the community out in desert to waste away.
I won't pretend to have complete knowledge of their business, but I know how this style of business works, having seen and experienced this from multiple angles. They are going to take a hit, and it's going to be significant unless they have something massively attractive coming down the pipe very soon. Their core, older base will largely feel betrayed and older players or GW converts will see this as familiar territory. Younger less invested players may well decide to cut ship now in light of the future chaos, without a community to ground and concentrate them.
Short term, it's going to be bad, but it's going to be worse long term too, as the community is what drives this game. It's not pretty enough to attract many from an arts perspective, at least compared to GWs stuff now and days, and the rules are unfortunately too complex for basic initiates. Even dumbed down to a battle-box level, it's a far more involved rule system than GW. PGs helped bridge that and bring new players into the fold... some will no doubt continue but some won't and any loss will negatively impact local communities.
Driving hardened players off PPs website isn't ideal, and I don't think their testing forums are really going to change that.
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Post by protocon on Mar 10, 2017 19:22:09 GMT
I find it kinda funny. I find it kinda sad. upload pic
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Post by phantasmagorium on Mar 10, 2017 19:25:56 GMT
I find it kinda funny. I find it kinda sad. This is wrong. He is clearly Chaos Undivided.
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